9 vs 40 - a compelling case with some interesting test results.

Still loving my .40’s...and still shooting way more of it than 9mm...no reason than I just like it..
 
That was an excellent video imo, and hard to argue with. I like shooting 9mm for the cost and own many, but I did just buy my second .40 and am looking forward to practicing with that. If I had to choose one for personal defense after watching that, it would be .40s&w, and I don't think the longevity of the firearm would be a consideration for choosing a calibre in a self defense scenario. A friend of mine has 20,000+ rounds through his m&p .40.
 
FWIW, I have never even come close to wearing out any gun in .40, even the ones I shot many thousands of rounds through.

The argument over which gun will last longer is academic imho. At least for almost all ppl it is.
 
Claven2 said:
FWIW, I have never even come close to wearing out any gun in .40
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I think the biggest issues were with earlier guns where manufacturers just converted a 9mm design to .40. I know Vancouver PD had a lot of trouble with their Beretta 96s... They literally got bashed to pieces over a few years of requalification shoots.

There is always that specter of the early Glock 22s with Kaboom problems due to "unsupported" chambers. Pistols designed around the .40 S&W cartridge such as the Steyr M40 and S&W M&P40 resolved this, and Glock followed suit with updated chambers on their .40 S&W barrels.

I only prefer 9mm over .40 due to cost. If the Queen was still paying for my ammo I'd go .40 for the increased whack downrange. YMMV.
 
Claven2 said:
I find a hot 40 load to be close to a hot 9 load in felt recoil. Both can be down loaded. A .40 ipsc load is like factory 9.

The FBI's stated logic is that 9 can be shot faster and more accurately, and that modern 9 loads have improved to be as good as .40 loads. The above video explores that hypothesis and speaks for itself.
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9mm is easier to shoot. Period.

If that wasn't a big concern, 40sw wouldn't even exist, they'd still be rocking 10mm.

For people who have limited training and even less practice time, the 9mm is the obvious choice.
 
Suther said:
9mm is easier to shoot. Period.

If that wasn't a big concern, 40sw wouldn't even exist, they'd still be rocking 10mm.

For people who have limited training and even less practice time, the 9mm is the obvious choice.
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Exactly. It's like saying oh Jerry Miculek can blaze targets with a 50bmg just as well as a 9mm, so therefore I agree that 50bmg is best.

In the video he talks about Police/FBI and that the recoil difference between 9mm and 40 is negligible because they are highly trained professionals. Most are not gun people so his argument doesn't hold up. Many only shoot during qualification.

One just has to look at ballistic gelatin tests on Hornady Critical Duty rounds on their website to see there's pretty much no difference the two. ATK used to have tests on their website between Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST but it looks like they changed their website.

Plain and simple, 9mm is easier to shoot, higher mag capacity, longer service life and ammo is significantly cheaper. And if we just go by statistics of mag capacity doesn't matter because most police shootings are over in 3 rounds or less, then you could argue police don't need firearms because they barely ever use them. I rather carry the most rounds instead of following statistics. There are also police shootings where officers have emptied their pistols.

https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
 
Loyer said:
I was told the reason for changing back to 9mm was the excessive cost of .40 cal ammo (????????)

I do find the .40 to be a more unpleasant cartridge to shot, especially if not practised with as compared to the 9 mm.
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excessive cost of repair also on the 40's. We initially had the Beretta 96D Centurion and they wore out pretty quickly. We then switched to the Glock 22 and I liked it but there are early repair issues now as I understand and it will be likely G17's for the future in the GTA anyway.
 
I shoot my .40 and my .45 more than I do my nine; and it's just because it's fun. I reload, so cost is still a factor, but not a huge factor. The 1911 is just fun and easy to shoot, and my NP58 likes hot loads, and it is just plain satisfying to shoot!!!
 
I am Enjoying my M&P 40, stock. I grabbed a 9mm barrel for it (storm lake drop in) . It can shoot both.

In a #### hit the fan scenario , I would actually prefer .40sw over 9mm.

If your aim isn't complete dog####, it's easy to see(FEEL) which one would incapacitate a target quicker.

Both are fun to shoot I must attest.

Bringing up this caliber war is a waste yo!
 
Sinasta said:
Exactly. It's like saying oh Jerry Miculek can blaze targets with a 50bmg just as well as a 9mm, so therefore I agree that 50bmg is best.

In the video he talks about Police/FBI and that the recoil difference between 9mm and 40 is negligible because they are highly trained professionals. Most are not gun people so his argument doesn't hold up. Many only shoot during qualification.

One just has to look at ballistic gelatin tests on Hornady Critical Duty rounds on their website to see there's pretty much no difference the two. ATK used to have tests on their website between Speer Gold Dot and Federal HST but it looks like they changed their website.

Plain and simple, 9mm is easier to shoot, higher mag capacity, longer service life and ammo is significantly cheaper. And if we just go by statistics of mag capacity doesn't matter because most police shootings are over in 3 rounds or less, then you could argue police don't need firearms because they barely ever use them. I rather carry the most rounds instead of following statistics. There are also police shootings where officers have emptied their pistols.

https://www.policeone.com/police-he...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
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Speer and Federal are now part of Vista Outdoor. They still have FBI Test Protocol performance data for HST and Gold Dot ammo on the LE website:

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/

As one can see, there is not a huge difference in performance between 9mm and .40. Nine is fine.
 
Suther said:
9mm is easier to shoot. Period.

If that wasn't a big concern, 40sw wouldn't even exist, they'd still be rocking 10mm.

For people who have limited training and even less practice time, the 9mm is the obvious choice.
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I anyone feels .40 is too snappy, god help them if they ever think to shoot almost any magnum cartridge, or even a .45acp defence load (!)

I find it to be on the milder side of modern handgun calibre, but ymmv.
 
tjhaile said:
Speer and Federal are now part of Vista Outdoor. They still have FBI Test Protocol performance data for HST and Gold Dot ammo on the LE website:

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/

As one can see, there is not a huge difference in performance between 9mm and .40. Nine is fine.
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Again, in the video, the 9mm had virtually zero expansion on meat targets and less penetration. The same ammo in .40 mushroomed to about 1" diameter while also penetrating more.

I found the contrast to be significant. FWIW.
 
Winchester-1897 said:
excessive cost of repair also on the 40's. We initially had the Beretta 96D Centurion and they wore out pretty quickly. We then switched to the Glock 22 and I liked it but there are early repair issues now as I understand and it will be likely G17's for the future in the GTA anyway.
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The centurion s did not hold up well, true. I've not seen any longevity issues in the g22. At least not in non-consumable parts.
 
9mm had a bad reputation in the past for a reason, and it's telling that it established that reputation at a time when the anemic .38 Special was the standard of comparison.
 
r34skyline said:
And to the guy thats as fast with both or even hotter stuff like 10mm or 45 super. I would like to see that because physics says otherwise.
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You callin' me a liar?? lol I said "pretty much" as fast. I'm admittedly probably a bit quicker with 9 or 40, but I can shoot the larger calibers nearly as quickly and just as accurately. Physics doesn't "say otherwise", but you're right, it DOES play a big part.... 9 and 40 in small, light guns (G17 and G23) vs 10 and 45 in big, heavy full-size guns. For similar performance there is aways a trade-off. And add lots of practice with hot .45 and 10mm. I am convinced that if my shot placement is good, a more powerful round will be more effective. This video backs me up on that, though I have also read probably the same other research you and others here have that indicates otherwise.
 
Claven2 said:
Again, in the video, the 9mm had virtually zero expansion on meat targets and less penetration. The same ammo in .40 mushroomed to about 1" diameter while also penetrating more.

I found the contrast to be significant. FWIW.
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First of all, I am more inclined to accept the scientific merit of the FBI Protocol versus some Youtuber's meat and oranges man. Contrary to what many would believe, it actually has been designed to correlate with results from real-world shootings, particularly the 4 layer denim portion of the test.

Second, the Federal Personal Defense loads are not something I would carry into harm's way, as they are an obsolete design. Additionally, the choice of 115 grain 9mm and 180 grain .40 S&W is going to portray each in the worst and best possible light, respectively. 115 grain 9mm JHPs generally either under-penetrate or fail to expand and 180 grain .40 generally works best for most bullet designs. Any of the loads from the list here will provide acceptable terminal performance:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

The poster of the above is Dr Gary K. Roberts, who is probably the foremost expert on wound ballistics.

Below are typical service pistol wound profiles for comparison:
9_40_45One_04-1.jpg
 
Claven2 said:
The centurion s did not hold up well, true. I've not seen any longevity issues in the g22. At least not in non-consumable parts.
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Have a chat with a high use agency... I think it was FBI itself that claimed the increase in parts consumption along with a 50% life compared to a g17... but I don't have any source on it atm. If I find it, I'll cite it in a future edit.

On another note to recoil impulse aimpoint tested their new acro red dot on a 40 slide specifically because of the abnormally high g forces of the slide... that's kind of the telling if you ask me.

CobraGT said:
You callin' me a liar?? lol I said "pretty much" as fast. I'm admittedly probably a bit quicker with 9 or 40, but I can shoot the larger calibers nearly as quickly and just as accurately. Physics doesn't "say otherwise", but you're right, it DOES play a big part.... 9 and 40 in small, light guns (G17 and G23) vs 10 and 45 in big, heavy full-size guns. For similar performance there is aways a trade-off. And add lots of practice with hot .45 and 10mm. I am convinced that if my shot placement is good, a more powerful round will be more effective. This video backs me up on that, though I have also read probably the same other research you and others here have that indicates otherwise.
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which equates to a lot of cost... good job for the training to become that proficient with a 10mm or a 45 super(no that wasn't sarcastic). And yes 45 super or 10mm would have better terminal effects.

It still doesn't change that it will involve a heavier gun... and a lot more money to become proficient with said heavy gun. One caveat being a 10mm or 45 super is excellent for dealing with both 2 legged and certain 4 legged predators. So if you live or work in an area where said 4 legged predators can be a serious concern... I absolutely recommend getting good with the punchier stuff like you mentioned.

But going back to my original point... the 9mm is the sweet spot of terminal capability, ease of learning and shootability, and cost.

If you are buying for an agency that is why 9mm is the answer.

If you are buying for self defence in urban settings or just for general self defence against 2 legged predators 9mm is the most logical choice, especially if you live in an area where ccw is an option.

If you are starting out in competition, 9mm is also the best starting option till you get to the level where you can figure out which whizzy caliber is best suited for you.

If you are a hobby shooter... doesn't matter buy the one you want in whatever caliber, colour what have you. Not to sound condescending but this is where the bulk of cgn members fall under... making this thread mostly pointless.

If you are serious and want to train with a different caliber to be different... great. Just know it will cost you a lot more time and money to be effective with it.
 
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