9mm carbine. More than a toy?

I would suggest with a long barrel and the right ammo, it is nothing to sneeze at.

I am currently working on some carbine specific loads for my 19.5" Beretta Storm carbine.

no chrono yet, but it seems to have much less drop at 100m. hits the steel nice and hard too.

starting with max loads with HS-6 and 115grn ammo. much nicer than factory 115grn ammo.

I figure a slower powder to take advantage of the longer barrel and light projectiles for speed, along with hollow points for ethical harvesting. I would assume very deadly on smaller game
 
Nobody thinks that 9mm is smaller than .23, gotta read the comment before that one. And I have yet to find 9mm in anything other than FMJ, at local shops or even Cabelas.ca.

I'm sure there are great personal defence jacketed hollow points out there, but ballistics gel expansion vs deer hide and brushing a rib, may not be a straight across comparison. On paper, it seems like a guy could drop a whitetail at 100yards with it.
 
Suputin said:
Heh? So none of the hundreds of 9mm JHPs work at the speed of the round they are designed for? What the hell are those ammo designers doing, making ammo that doesn't work in the ammo it is designed to work in?
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feeling pesty today Suputin?
You know very well what the 9mm bullets are designed for
(hint: not hunting hint: close range engagement hint: thin skinned targets).
 
legi0n said:
feeling pesty today Suputin?
You know very well what the 9mm bullets are designed for
(hint: not hunting hint: close range engagement hint: thin skinned targets).
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Some days yes.

So a 170 lb white tail is not thin skinned like a 240 lb human male in a down ski jacket?

The only real difference is gonna be distance of engagement and thus impact velocity. In the end I think that intentionally using 9mm to hunt deer vs another more suitable cartridge is a STUPID idea. Starving and cold in the woods and all bets are off but that's not what this discussion is about.
 
JR Hartman said:
I figure a slower powder to take advantage of the longer barrel and light projectiles for speed, along with hollow points for ethical harvesting. I would assume very deadly on smaller game
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These are pure blow-back guns. That means the action will open as soon as the energy from the accelerating bullet equals the energy required to move the bolt and recoil spring. Loading slower powders won't change that equation.

You may gain a bit due to the complete burn of the powder inside the barrel but you will also lose due to friction from the barrel once the powder has all burned. Regardless, once the action opens, the bullet can only slow down from that point.

Loading lightweight bullets is great for close in speed but the bullet will lose speed more quickly at distance. Lightweight bullets also penetrate less deeply than heavier bullets. Trying to take a deer at 100 yds with a 9mm is gonna be an exercise in opposing forces. Anything that allows you to gain at one end of the equation will result in a loss at the other end.
 
Suputin said:
Some days yes.

The only real difference is gonna be distance of engagement and thus impact velocity. In the end I think that intentionally using 9mm to hunt deer vs another more suitable cartridge is a STUPID idea. Starving and cold in the woods and all bets are off but that's not what this discussion is about.
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my thoughts exactly
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OP I'm not sure I would even consider the 9mm a "gopher gun" to be honest.
Your first reply about it being a toy in comparison to a hunting round is accurate in my opinion.
I shoot 9mm A LOT, with a pistol. I would never use it for hunting personally.
Sounds like another "1 gun that does it all question". There isn't one that does it all. Which (as already been mentioned) you do not see hunting rounds made for the 9mm.
Also, several provinces have minimum energy regulations for certain animals. the 9mm is in the low end compared to any hunting round, in any calibre.
 
I had a non rest 9mm Storm Carbine. After much time at the load bench, I found the best you could hope to expect, would be to get velocity and energy figures at the muzzle that duplicate the .357 magnum out of a handgun, and at 100m that which a 9mm pistol gets at the muzzle. So basically, you're increasing the effective range of the 9mm cartridge to about 100-125m. Mine would shoot IVI 124gr ball into 2.5" at 100m, so I was happy with the accuracy, but the lack of power left me wanting...

The (unwritten) rule for humanely killing a deer sized animal is the projectile should produce a minimum of 1000ft lbs. energy at the distance the animal is dispatched. The 9mm, even in a carbine won't get those numbers.
 
I am getting 1350fps with American eagle 165 grain factory .40s&w. I would not hesitate to pull the trigger on any deer within range with a Speer GDhp same or even a crappy hornady xtp. Sure if I screw up the shot it's not going to blow a hole the size of a basketball through its guts like a 300 win mag.... But growing up on the farm I learned what even the lowly .22lr can do.. these rounds will punch a quarter sized hole through the vitals every time.

In my opinion if you have to ask, don't do it....
 
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Suputin said:
These are pure blow-back guns. That means the action will open as soon as the energy from the accelerating bullet equals the energy required to move the bolt and recoil spring. Loading slower powders won't change that equation.

You may gain a bit due to the complete burn of the powder inside the barrel but you will also lose due to friction from the barrel once the powder has all burned. Regardless, once the action opens, the bullet can only slow down from that point.

Loading lightweight bullets is great for close in speed but the bullet will lose speed more quickly at distance. Lightweight bullets also penetrate less deeply than heavier bullets. Trying to take a deer at 100 yds with a 9mm is gonna be an exercise in opposing forces. Anything that allows you to gain at one end of the equation will result in a loss at the other end.
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Just wanted to say that the bit about the action opening too quickly for slower powders to have an affect on velocity due to the action opening is not true. On nearly all modern firearm actions the case expands with pressure to the chamber walls. This acts as a gas seal this in turn also creates a lot of friction which in a properly weighted blowback design causes enough of a delay in the transfer of energy at peak pressures to effectively stall the removal of the case till pressure has been reduced to safe levels. Adding slower powder (within a reasonable range) will increase the dwell time of peak pressure just a little longer.

Also keep in mind that the bullet has left the barrel a relatively long period of time before a blowback action begins to extract the case anyway.
 
Erickson5006 said:
I like the idea of a small rifle that barely kicks and isn't loud. I would also like such a rifle in non restricted form. But having an 18.5" barrel on a 9mm, can it ever be more than just an expensive gopher gun?

Are there loads in a 9mm that could say, be used for whitetail at close range?

Is a 9mm ever going to plink with the hunting rifles at a distance past 100 yards?
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Ballistic By The Inch showed that the 19" barrel of the Cx4 will add about 200 fps to the speed of the bullet over a handgun barrel.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

I'd agree that the 9mm is not the ideal "one shot one deer at 300m" bullet that most hunters like. I believe however that you can absolutely drop a deer at up to 100m with one round of 9mm JHP in the vitals area. And you have nine more shots immediately available as backup, too. And plenty of Cx4 owners can attest to dead coyotes and smaller mammals, too.

So yes, it can be used on whitetail at close range. It's just not the best possible tool for the job.

Beyond 100 yards, no, it's not a good plinker. Bullet has a real low BC, drops by about 6 feet at 250y if I remember right. :)
 
OCCAM said:
Just wanted to say that the bit about the action opening too quickly for slower powders to have an affect on velocity due to the action opening is not true. On nearly all modern firearm actions the case expands with pressure to the chamber walls. This acts as a gas seal this in turn also creates a lot of friction which in a properly weighted blowback design causes enough of a delay in the transfer of energy at peak pressures to effectively stall the removal of the case till pressure has been reduced to safe levels. Adding slower powder (within a reasonable range) will increase the dwell time of peak pressure just a little longer.

Also keep in mind that the bullet has left the barrel a relatively long period of time before a blowback action begins to extract the case anyway.
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this was my understanding as well.
 
OCCAM said:
Just wanted to say that the bit about the action opening too quickly for slower powders to have an affect on velocity due to the action opening is not true. On nearly all modern firearm actions the case expands with pressure to the chamber walls. This acts as a gas seal this in turn also creates a lot of friction which in a properly weighted blowback design causes enough of a delay in the transfer of energy at peak pressures to effectively stall the removal of the case till pressure has been reduced to safe levels. Adding slower powder (within a reasonable range) will increase the dwell time of peak pressure just a little longer.

Also keep in mind that the bullet has left the barrel a relatively long period of time before a blowback action begins to extract the case anyway.
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Interesting, and makes sense.
 
Anyone up for a .25 or .32 ACP for bear defense and moose hunting thread? Bueller? Bueller?

In all seriousness, a 9mm is woefully insufficient for hunting big game. It might be good for smaller stuff like yotes, badgers, gophers and ground hogs, that that's about it. PCCs are toys with some function, which is superbly better than Mossberg Chainsaws, which serve no function.
 
Erickson5006 said:
I like the idea of a small rifle that barely kicks and isn't loud. I would also like such a rifle in non restricted form. But having an 18.5" barrel on a 9mm, can it ever be more than just an expensive gopher gun?

Are there loads in a 9mm that could say, be used for whitetail at close range?

Is a 9mm ever going to plink with the hunting rifles at a distance past 100 yards?

I have no experience, and have yet to do any research, thought I'd start here.
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a toy? badgers and gophers?
hummmm
germans killed a whole lot of Russians with a 9mm mp40
i dont think its a toy, maybe ask the dead Russians if they've seen any dead gophers around.
 
I owned a 9mm Thureon Defense PCC a few years back. Great rifle but I don't know what I was thinking when I bought it. It's to big for small game and to small for big game so it was essentially a toy to me. It moved to another CGNers house.

I've thought about getting a Gen 2 Sub 2000 to keep behind the seat in the truck when I'm 100 miles back in the middle of nowhere and get stuck. (Have had that happen before, it's not fun to lug an 8 pound 12 gauge pump 60 miles to the main road when you have very little food and only ditch water to drink) But I think I'm going to go with a Chiappa little badger in 22lr instead. Much more practical.
 
Grawfr said:
Ballistic By The Inch showed that the 19" barrel of the Cx4 will add about 200 fps to the speed of the bullet over a handgun barrel.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
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That's a cool site! Wish they had some testing done with the .454 Casull. I've never shot my 20" Rossi carbine over a chrony and have always wondered what type of velocities I'm getting over the standard 7ish inch test barrels that most companies use.
 
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