depends where you live, but in the back woods here, I wouldnt be going walking around with anything less than a 30-30
9mm carbine. More than a toy?
- Thread starter Erickson5006
- Start date
depends where you live, but in the back woods here, I wouldnt be going walking around with anything less than a 30-30
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
So you want a plinker,defense round that can double as a hunting calibre? 7.62x39 is better in all those categories.
I had a Sub 2K and to be honest it was basically a handgun that was easier to fire. For hunting I would take a lot of things first. 9mm has a lot of merits but its not a caliber for hunting.It doesn't even compare to a crude rifle round like 7.62x39. Its a night and day difference.
I had a Sub 2K and to be honest it was basically a handgun that was easier to fire. For hunting I would take a lot of things first. 9mm has a lot of merits but its not a caliber for hunting.It doesn't even compare to a crude rifle round like 7.62x39. Its a night and day difference.
I have a few Beretta 9mm carbines. I think that with goo bullets and close range it would kill a deer cleanly. Hitting a deer size kill zone at 100m with one is easy, but I can't see selecting it for hunting on purpose.
I think these would excel as a home defense firearm. Easy to use, no recoil, accurate, fast to load and get into operation.......
I think these would excel as a home defense firearm. Easy to use, no recoil, accurate, fast to load and get into operation.......
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
It really makes me wish there was something like a chiappa little badger but in something like .357 magnum
It could probably kill anything that walked in NA, I wouldn't count on a drt unless you give em one in the noggin. My Jrc sure whacked my gong at 100 pretty hard, wouldn't want to be in front of it that's for sure, I'd deer hunt with it as long as treated it as a bow or or a shotgun with buckshot.
Dorian Gray
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That's a good point Mike and if I lived on your side of the country, I would probably be thinking of something along those lines too. Or maybe a 22 Hornet or something. Cougars and Grizzlys could really ruin a guys day. Anyway, I'm not too worried about having to use my rifle to defend myself in the type of situation I described earlier. We have lots of black bears here but they are much more likely to turn tail and book it when they see a human. Id wager most of them have never even seen a person before. I'm much more concerned about starving on my 3-4 day walk back to the main road than a defense type of situation. I mean yeah, #### could happen. But 99.9% of what i want a firearm for in that situation would be in obtaining food. So a 22lr caliber rifle that weighs next to nothing and 100 rounds of ammo would be a great choice for me personally.
I think Gatehouse is right about where a PCC would excel. Especially if you wanted something that anyone in your household could operate without a hitch. I live alone so I'm quite partial to the 870 for that type of thing. Theoretically, that is.
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
That's not hard to do when you have a submachinegun and are using it to clear the ruins of Stalingrad. When was the last time you encountered a squad of hostile deer and needed to put them down with automatic fire? And comparing hunting to war is apples to oranges.
In case you didn't realize, we are not at war, and we are discussing the practical uses of a certain firearm. Yes, a 9mm can be perfectly lethal, but it is highly unlikely to produce a quick clean kill on a big game animal. You're more likely to wound the thing and chase it for miles than you are of having it flop down dead. As such, it only good as a range-toy, or for minor pest/varmint control. In comparison a .223 generates over twice the energy of a 9mm, and a 30-30 does over three times the energy.
I decent amount of folks have hunted deer with 9mm and 45 carbines alike and it killed the deer every time. A moose or elk however I would recommend a more powerful cartridge. Lots of pics on hunting forums of JR carbines and the like with their kill...
bkelly4790
Regular
They have been used since the late 60's to kill unarmoured bad guys but it would take a couple rounds like easily 5 or more which was easy to since they are very very controllable on full auto especially with a can on them.
Fast forward to current times a ton of advancement has happened in making good rifles and rifle ammuntion that function well shot out of short barrels and you can engage armoured targets and still be able to penetrate their armour I can only think of some very special Russian 9mm that can penetrate a rifle plate and its very very much loaded to over standard CIP/SAAMI spec for chamber pressures so shooting it out of guns not designed for it is a big nono. This is kinda why things like the Mp7 and P90 where invented they are something Mp5 size but can defeat rifle plates but that has a negative on terminal performance because they aren't going to expand or tumble much inside your target you are just going to be punching 4.6mm and 5.7mm holes in your target. I have talked to some NSW dudes who have used the MP7 in combat and they really didn't like it because you need to put 15+ rounds into people center mass to neutralize your target which isn't ideal because that is atleast half your magazine, although because of their decent rate of fire and controllability its not an impossible task but almost always they would prefer a 5.56 carbine like the Mk18, CQBR M4 or 10.5" 416 since the 77 grain 5.56 does tumble and yaw creating bigger wounds neutralizing threats in 3-5 rounds.
The US DHS even has a big pamphlet of info it will send to people if they are a LEO on why they suggest replacing their aging 9mm sub guns with either 10.5" or 11.5" 5.56 carbines because of overall better terminal performance and you can reach out to 300m or more if needed to and still have effective terminal performance with proper ammo selection.
All in all they 9mm sub guns are cool I own a SBR'd HK94 with the A2 stock and a FA Converted SP89 that is basically a MP5k PDW and I carry them routinely with me in a bag when I'm traveling around back home but the 5.56 is a better all around option albeit generally in slightly a larger factor but even then you can use things like the LAW Tactical Folding stock adapter or a PDW style stock to make them just as compact and concealble.
TL;DR: 9mm subguns are good at killing unarmoured things at close ranges with 5-10+ quick shots on target center mass but 5.56 guns perform better and with some fannagling can be just as compact while offering increased range and terminal performance even on armoured targets.
Fast forward to current times a ton of advancement has happened in making good rifles and rifle ammuntion that function well shot out of short barrels and you can engage armoured targets and still be able to penetrate their armour I can only think of some very special Russian 9mm that can penetrate a rifle plate and its very very much loaded to over standard CIP/SAAMI spec for chamber pressures so shooting it out of guns not designed for it is a big nono. This is kinda why things like the Mp7 and P90 where invented they are something Mp5 size but can defeat rifle plates but that has a negative on terminal performance because they aren't going to expand or tumble much inside your target you are just going to be punching 4.6mm and 5.7mm holes in your target. I have talked to some NSW dudes who have used the MP7 in combat and they really didn't like it because you need to put 15+ rounds into people center mass to neutralize your target which isn't ideal because that is atleast half your magazine, although because of their decent rate of fire and controllability its not an impossible task but almost always they would prefer a 5.56 carbine like the Mk18, CQBR M4 or 10.5" 416 since the 77 grain 5.56 does tumble and yaw creating bigger wounds neutralizing threats in 3-5 rounds.
The US DHS even has a big pamphlet of info it will send to people if they are a LEO on why they suggest replacing their aging 9mm sub guns with either 10.5" or 11.5" 5.56 carbines because of overall better terminal performance and you can reach out to 300m or more if needed to and still have effective terminal performance with proper ammo selection.
All in all they 9mm sub guns are cool I own a SBR'd HK94 with the A2 stock and a FA Converted SP89 that is basically a MP5k PDW and I carry them routinely with me in a bag when I'm traveling around back home but the 5.56 is a better all around option albeit generally in slightly a larger factor but even then you can use things like the LAW Tactical Folding stock adapter or a PDW style stock to make them just as compact and concealble.
TL;DR: 9mm subguns are good at killing unarmoured things at close ranges with 5-10+ quick shots on target center mass but 5.56 guns perform better and with some fannagling can be just as compact while offering increased range and terminal performance even on armoured targets.
bkelly4790
Regular
Most subsonic 9mm is still in the 165-170 dB range which will still cause permanent damage, 5.56 out of a 10.5" barrel is around 175ish plus sonic boom so either way your hearing is getting damaged there is something to be said for "tone" the 9mm in my expierence indoors is not as harsh as 5.56 but its still doing permanent damage so no real advantage.
bkelly4790
Regular
Yea I know dB is a logarithmic scale but you are still causing permanent damage it's not really an edge IMO. I guess I'm thinking about this American way where all the home defense gats have cans and/or Sordins and Peltors hanging on them or on the same table.
Please don't pull numbers and information out of yer @ss. Because then I have to come along and post up the actual sound data and correct you and this gets boring after a while.
Supersonic 9mm will run around 163 dB. Supersonic 556 will run around 165 dB. Nothing short of a 338 LM will come close to 170 dB. Subsonic 9mm will be in the 155 - 158 dB range depending on the powder.
As to the issue of supersonic flight noise. You the shooter will never be directly exposed to it because flight noise travels perpendicular to the flight path, much like the wake from a motorboat. Being directly behind the bullet means the flight noise travels away from the shooter. The flight noise you do hear is reflected off the ground. On top of all that, the flight noise from a 30 cal is roughly 150 dB, so quite a lot less than the muzzle blast.
PS If you think I am full of it, then I will drag out my $4000 sound meter and perform the testing per Mil Std 1474D protocol as defined in Al Paulson's book "Silencer Testing and Performance Vol 1" in order to prove it to you.
That "rule" is a crock. No offense intended here.
But it's a crock. You don't need a thousand foot pounds of energy to humanely down a white tail deer. An elk, sure, maybe a better idea.
My reading of that rule is that it was intended to be for larger game. Not small deer.
But it also depends on the bullet construction and size. Having double that in an FMJ bullet won't do you much good, but having 2/3 of that in a well designed expanding bullet made to expand properly at the velocity it will impact at, will do just fine with proper shot placement.
Hell guys used to take deer all the time with a well placed 22lr or 22 wmr shot. I'd have no issue with the idea of using a 9mm with the right bullet at the right distance and velocity, to harvest a deer, should you want to do it.
Guys in the states hunt white tail with 357 magnum out of a revolver.... Your Jr or other pcc can match those ballistics fairly closely
Whether you agree that a handgun cartridge is capable in downing big game humanely or not, if your buying a PCC for a plinker/survival gun, ... I highly doubt when your in a real survival situation and starving to death your going to give a Sh;t if the animal dies humanely or not. Mother nature sure doesn't.
If your buying the gun to fill a cheap to shoot plinker / yearly deer hunting gun role, Id agree with others and recommend something in 7.62x39mm .
Or just get both. I use my ASR for gophers, porcupine, coyotes, badgers, probably beavers etc.
If your buying the gun to fill a cheap to shoot plinker / yearly deer hunting gun role, Id agree with others and recommend something in 7.62x39mm .
Or just get both
. I use my ASR for gophers, porcupine, coyotes, badgers, probably beavers etc.I don't own a 22 instead I bought an ASR. 9mm does a great job on squirell, raccoon and any other furry critter that makes a mess of the place. As for purpose hunting a deer or larger I have other guns for that "cough" 45-70. With the longer barrel 100yard shots are a 2Moa gimmy (don't even start with the sub MOA is needed crap) 150yards I'd still shoot at small game, 200yards well at that point your more just trying to scare it off. In my opinion the rifle at 200yards is like 2-5moa and your not hitting small game with that but a steel target sure. Seen videos of 400 yard shots with them but at that point your bench resting it and taking 10-20shots before turning to camera on to show you can get 3 on steel.
Personally I chose the TNW simply for the quick brake down and in 30 seconds can fit into or be pulled out of my range bag. Makes the trip to the range easier and if I'm shooting in the back 40 or quading out with more than one rifle it's a nice feature. I am 100% not a believer in doing the 9mm conversion for an AR to practice with. Actually I think in shooting will be the only place where someone practices with a lighter weight (teaches horrible habits). You never see a baseball player saying " o hand me a lighter bat to take my practice swings with" I'd rather shoot 50 rounds of perfect practice then 100-150 rounds of 9mm wasted practice.
That's the end of my rant that just kind of crept in as I was writing.
To sum up
9mm instead of .22
9mm is not practice ammo
45-70 is better to kill game then 9mm
Personally I chose the TNW simply for the quick brake down and in 30 seconds can fit into or be pulled out of my range bag. Makes the trip to the range easier and if I'm shooting in the back 40 or quading out with more than one rifle it's a nice feature. I am 100% not a believer in doing the 9mm conversion for an AR to practice with. Actually I think in shooting will be the only place where someone practices with a lighter weight (teaches horrible habits). You never see a baseball player saying " o hand me a lighter bat to take my practice swings with" I'd rather shoot 50 rounds of perfect practice then 100-150 rounds of 9mm wasted practice.
That's the end of my rant that just kind of crept in as I was writing.
To sum up
9mm instead of .22
9mm is not practice ammo
45-70 is better to kill game then 9mm
Did not our grandfathers and great grandfathers hunt and kill deer regularly with .32-20 and .25-20 carbines? They were very popular deer harvesting calibres for many decades less than 60 years ago.
A .32-20 was mainly loaded with a 85gr. FN lead bullet at 1100 fps or a 115gr. FN lead bullet at 900fps in a carbine. Both less powerful than the bigger 9mm bullets out of a carbine today. Those old time hunters also usually used only one shot to take down a deer rather than waste expensive ammo, as always, bullet placement is more important than hi velocity or bullet power.
A 9mm carbine with a good 124gr. hollow point or soft point bullet at 1200 fps will easily kill deer within 100 yards with proper bullet placement.
A .32-20 was mainly loaded with a 85gr. FN lead bullet at 1100 fps or a 115gr. FN lead bullet at 900fps in a carbine. Both less powerful than the bigger 9mm bullets out of a carbine today. Those old time hunters also usually used only one shot to take down a deer rather than waste expensive ammo, as always, bullet placement is more important than hi velocity or bullet power.
A 9mm carbine with a good 124gr. hollow point or soft point bullet at 1200 fps will easily kill deer within 100 yards with proper bullet placement.
- Location
- chilliwack BC.
the .357mag thing is what I was shooting for, pun intended.
and yea, the 32-20 and 25-20 also came to mind.
That said, I won't be using mine to hunt deer with. I have several other firearms with definitely enough power to stop anything in North America. My part of the exercise is to just gain some efficiency for the fun of it, and make 200 yard 9mm shots more fun. If I can easily and repeatedly ring 8" gongs at 200m with it, and not have to hold it way the hell high, I see a win.
and yea, the 32-20 and 25-20 also came to mind.
That said, I won't be using mine to hunt deer with. I have several other firearms with definitely enough power to stop anything in North America. My part of the exercise is to just gain some efficiency for the fun of it, and make 200 yard 9mm shots more fun. If I can easily and repeatedly ring 8" gongs at 200m with it, and not have to hold it way the hell high, I see a win.
