9mm defence loads?

[tactical870]

Forget about the ammo type becasue it doesn't matter

Training is beyond important, but so is having a bullet that opens a large wound tract and causes significant shock. We've already established that a direct heart shot may take up to 11 seconds to incapacitate your assailant. The question is, do you want it to take longer?

 

[TACTICAL111]

Training is beyond important, but so is having a bullet that opens a large wound tract and causes significant shock. We've already established that a direct heart shot may take up to 11 seconds to incapacitate your assailant. The question is, do you want it to take longer?

I disagree, it matters not when there are 5 + wounds + additional 5 + rounds launched within 1\2 second, with more to follow moving forward while doing so.

The fight would be over before it even began.

 

[colt45gunner]

all factors mentioned are a +
having practise and good shot placement is important,
as is having the better type ammo to assist in damage being done to stop the attack
and shooting till the attack stops is important...

... if sh*t hits the fan you may be nervous to sh@t and not shoot so accurate as you'd think.. so bigger expanding bullets are your friend.

why would anyone only favor the one factor ?? there are other factors to assist in the task at hand then utilize it too.. if somehow talking dirty to the bad guy was proven to help too, then use that tool too.. of course I'm just being silly there, but to make a point.. use all that you can.
wider bullet would be better, but I'm not going down that far...

if 9mm is your choice, then by any of the top brands in a hollow point, it's costly, so do most practise with cheap target ammo or reloads...but zero your gun with the good stuff and practise at least some rounds here and there to make sure if feeds well and you know it well.

And we don't know if your security who has to buy his own ammo (cause there is or at least there was one security co. that didn't support extra ammo for their employees.. F#*@!%g jerk offs) but don't put cost of bullets over your life man !!! just practise and practise alot with cheaper ammo..
and take some extra shooting course.

and don't be dumb and cheap and shoot 5 rnds of the HP's and figure that's good enough.. if you're that worried about it, then quit your job or put electric fence around your house...

 

[misanthropist]

I disagree, it matters not when there are 5 + wounds + additional 5 + rounds launched within 1\2 second, with more to follow moving forward while doing so.

The fight would be over before it even began.

If you're launching 5+ rounds in a half second, your split times are under .10 of a second.

If that is the case, no one here should argue with you about shooting, because you are one of the best shooters on the planet.

The alternative is that this post contains inaccurate information, and is not really based in reality.

So the decision readers have to make is this: which of those two options is more probable?

The round is less important than the skill of the shooter...but I'll take every advantage I can get.

 

[wicked_police]

And the odds of those miraculous 5+ rounds in half a second hitting anything vital and stopping the threat are as unlikely as 5+ rounds in half a second.

A real-life shooting isn't about getting C and D hits fast enough to offset the time penalties added.

 

[TDC]

all factors mentioned are a +
having practise and good shot placement is important,
as is having the better type ammo to assist in damage being done to stop the attack
and shooting till the attack stops is important...

... if sh*t hits the fan you may be nervous to sh@t and not shoot so accurate as you'd think.. so bigger expanding bullets are your friend.

why would anyone only favor the one factor ?? there are other factors to assist in the task at hand then utilize it too.. if somehow talking dirty to the bad guy was proven to help too, then use that tool too.. of course I'm just being silly there, but to make a point.. use all that you can.
wider bullet would be better, but I'm not going down that far...

if 9mm is your choice, then by any of the top brands in a hollow point, it's costly, so do most practise with cheap target ammo or reloads...but zero your gun with the good stuff and practise at least some rounds here and there to make sure if feeds well and you know it well.

And we don't know if your security who has to buy his own ammo (cause there is or at least there was one security co. that didn't support extra ammo for their employees.. F#*@!%g jerk offs) but don't put cost of bullets over your life man !!! just practise and practise alot with cheaper ammo..
and take some extra shooting course.

and don't be dumb and cheap and shoot 5 rnds of the HP's and figure that's good enough.. if you're that worried about it, then quit your job or put electric fence around your house...

Your ability to place rounds will diminish under stress. That being the case, focusing on shot placement is far more important than round selection. Both options are always better than one. Spend your time focusing on marksmanship and rapid sight acquisitions and stop fixating on what wonder round you're using.

As for training with HP ammo. If its what you carry, it should be what you shoot. Naturally that would be cost prohibitive and often difficult to sustain with the current availability of quality HP ammo. Regardless, train with as much of your carry ammo as possible. As for zeroing your pistol. Get a grip. Choices in ammo make next to zero difference when it comes to POA/POI. That belief is simply crap created by those who don't understand the fundamentals of marksmanship, which as mentioned will be greatly diminished under stress.

TDC

 

[ganymede]

I'm new to the train of thought here so have some patience. Can people really continue an attack after being shot in the chest or guts with a 9 mm? Is it just adrenaline at that point? I would just assume you would be really messed up.
Wally

Here is an interesting article:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

A small portion of this article:

In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)

After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

 

[TDC]

Say what!?!?!?! You mean super duper wizzy hollow points don't ensure a "one shot stop". Get out of town, you're lying!

Here's a couple more for you folks. The important bits are posted below each link.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific

The Aftermath
In addition to the bullet to his brain, Mettinger had taken six hits in the torso: one in the thigh and two in the right ankle that literally severed his foot, all of which were with hard-hitting .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition. Sadly, he had also been a law-abiding family man until earlier that evening, but had inexplicably become enraged with his wife and daughter not long before the call came in. He had been drinking heavily that night, but a definitive explanation for his bizarre behavior has never been determined.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

The Aftermath
Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

This one is a PDF and contains graphic images. The round count is phenomenal and the conclusion is shocking.
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

All,
• The following was posted on an NTOA blog last night:
• 3 officers were involved in a shooting this week. An ambush was set up for the officers prior to
their arrival, they took fire while still in their cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another
received wounds to his forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed
with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's and SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow
Points.
• Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was
also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds
expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the
Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also
received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical
Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on
them).
• The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was finally taken down after
receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap 55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72
gr. Hollow Points.
• The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the suspect in the ankle.
The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to engage officers, and was eventually killed by
the officer with the M-4.
• The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system.
• Range between subject and officers: 20 feet.
• Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket.
• Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely
through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his
aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside
the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.
• This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to shoot a subject in excess
of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or kill. There was another incident where a subject
was shot inside of his vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to
fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the back of his head. In this same
incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple times, the .40 S&W rounds never
penetrated through the seat. In this incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or

TDC

 

[Adam F85]

I prefer JHP for self defense, and dont mind paying extra for them.

My question regarding self defense ammo;

Would JHP be safer to shoot inside the confides of your home, with it being less likely to pass through walls and potentially injure others? Is it more likely to expand upon impact with studs in your walls, etc?

In my mind it would seem safer and a better choice for expansion providing you hit your target

 

[Wendell]

Would JHP be safer to shoot inside the confides of your home, with it being less likely to pass through walls and potentially injure others? Is it more likely to expand upon impact with studs in your walls, etc? In my mind it would seem safer and a better choice for expansion providing you hit your target

Choose your ammo
...police style

By Massad Ayoob
<http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html>

 

[colt45gunner]

Your ability to place rounds will diminish under stress. That being the case, focusing on shot placement is far more important than round selection. Both options are always better than one. Spend your time focusing on marksmanship and rapid sight acquisitions and stop fixating on what wonder round you're using.

As for training with HP ammo. If its what you carry, it should be what you shoot. Naturally that would be cost prohibitive and often difficult to sustain with the current availability of quality HP ammo. Regardless, train with as much of your carry ammo as possible. As for zeroing your pistol. Get a grip. Choices in ammo make next to zero difference when it comes to POA/POI. That belief is simply crap created by those who don't understand the fundamentals of marksmanship, which as mentioned will be greatly diminished under stress.

TDC

so, it seems we agreee in general, except for the practise ammo.. you don't need to practise with that expensive ammo everytime... if going to practise alot, cheaper target ammo of similar bullet weight and velocity is good enough, cause you're practising being comfortable with the gun, learning to shoot it well without flinching, practise draw, sight alignment, etc.. etc...
as long as you do pracise with that ammo too sometimes to know it well..
unless its free... if not free, no one other than donal trump can affordt to shoot the good stuff as often as you'd like to shoot..

Its important, very important to know your ammo and its zero point used on the job or on the hunt... anyone with enough experience knows you can practise with cheaper ammo... it basically feels same and zero will not be much different upto 25 yrds...

if the expensive stuff was forced onto someone to practise with and they have to pay for it themselves, well they'll practise with it, but far less then they should, and that's worse...

 

[Adam F85]

Choose your ammo
...police style

By Massad Ayoob
<http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html>

Thank you for this post

 

[TDC]

I prefer JHP for self defense, and dont mind paying extra for them.

My question regarding self defense ammo;

Would JHP be safer to shoot inside the confides of your home, with it being less likely to pass through walls and potentially injure others? Is it more likely to expand upon impact with studs in your walls, etc?

In my mind it would seem safer and a better choice for expansion providing you hit your target

It may or may not expand. Try focusing on making hits and stopping the threat, instead of worrying about over penetration.

so, it seems we agreee in general, except for the practise ammo.. you don't need to practise with that expensive ammo everytime... if going to practise alot, cheaper target ammo of similar bullet weight and velocity is good enough, cause you're practising being comfortable with the gun, learning to shoot it well without flinching, practise draw, sight alignment, etc.. etc...
as long as you do pracise with that ammo too sometimes to know it well..
unless its free... if not free, no one other than donal trump can affordt to shoot the good stuff as often as you'd like to shoot..

Its important, very important to know your ammo and its zero point used on the job or on the hunt... anyone with enough experience knows you can practise with cheaper ammo... it basically feels same and zero will not be much different upto 25 yrds...

if the expensive stuff was forced onto someone to practise with and they have to pay for it themselves, well they'll practise with it, but far less then they should, and that's worse...

We agree on the basics, but you're still way off with regards to ammo. I do agree its cheaper to practice with FMJ than your wizzy special carry ammo. But, that isn't the most productive method of training. As I posted, training with your carry ammo as often as financially possible is the best option. As for training with FMJ, if you haven't gotten comfortable with your firearm, you probably shouldn't be carrying it. As for zeroing. Its crap. For a handgun out to 50 yards, the difference between brands and weights is insignificant. At close range its not distinguishable. At greater distance the deviation is likely the shooter more than the ammo. Pet loads and zeroing for such are gimmicks and excuses for poor marksmanship.

TDC

 

[Adam F85]

I absolutely agree with you TDC but shooting under duress, not being professionally trained, shots are likely to be somewhat off target and I live extremely close to my neighbours and while I believe fiercely in protecting my family and castle I do not want to harm anyone who does not deserve it

 

[TDC]

I absolutely agree with you TDC but shooting under duress, not being professionally trained, shots are likely to be somewhat off target and I live extremely close to my neighbours and while I believe fiercely in protecting my family and castle I do not want to harm anyone who does not deserve it

Neither do I, but worrying about the possibility of rounds leaving your home before neutralizing the threat is counter productive. If the welfare of your neighbours takes priority over you and your family's welfare, your priorities are f*cked up and you probably should choose to be a victim instead.

TDC

 

[Adam F85]

I understand this, and obviously protecting myself and my family is number one but living in a home 5 feet from my neighbour, round selection plays a factor. Obviously hitting the intended target is number one and my main focus but if one round may prevent over penetration (through barriers) then it affects my decision

And whether or not over penetration is a possiblity I would still squeeze the trigger, I refuse to be anyones victim

 

[TDC]

I understand this, and obviously protecting myself and my family is number one but living in a home 5 feet from my neighbour, round selection plays a factor. Obviously hitting the intended target is number one and my main focus but if one round may prevent over penetration (through barriers) then it affects my decision

And whether or not over penetration is a possiblity I would still squeeze the trigger, I refuse to be anyones victim

With your neighbours so close, it doesn't matter what you use, they're all going to sail right through the wall(depending on material, I'm presuming you live in a condo or duplux arrangement?).

TDC

 

[plinker 777]

12 ga as previously mentioned

 

[Adam F85]

With your neighbours so close, it doesn't matter what you use, they're all going to sail right through the wall(depending on material, I'm presuming you live in a condo or duplux arrangement?).

TDC

No I own my own home in an area that is heavily developed. Heritage style home in Surrey, BC. If any round will pass through walls and exterior finishes then that answers my initial question, thank you

 

[plinker 777]

OMG...i give up