9mm minor or major

Comp guns work great with a minor power factor. At steel challenge, most loads are a 115 great bullet going around 900-1000 fps. Everybody in open uses a comp.

Most of the open rim fire pistols at SC also have comps.

All you have to do is shoot one with and without, you will be a believer. Your dot does not dance around.
 
A 115 gr bullet going 1000 fps gives you a Power Factor of 115. (Muzzle velocity x bullet weight divided by 1000 = PF)I don't know enough about Steel Challenge to comment so I'll just assume that is fine for that game. For IPSC, Open guns need to make a PF of 125 to be scored in Minor and 170 for Major. I guess we'll have to see what game the OP was hoping to compete in before adding to the confusion.

As an aside, KK, are there enough Steel Challenge matches in Canada to justify building a dedicated gun for that game? Not trying to be a smart ass - I'm just not that familiar with the game.
 
Compensated guns are all about finding the right balance for what you want to do with it. If you are interested in shooting major, you want the slowest burning largest gas volume powder you can get to affect the baffles in the comp and thereby reduce muzzle flip. Muzzle flip is not the same as recoil.

If you want to shoot steel challenge the you want a lighter bullet with the largest gas column available, again, to reduce flip.
If you want to shoot open minor you will still want to find a load that gives you the most bang for the buck in the comp to reduce flip. In IPSC Open Division you will be relegated the bullets 120 grains or over. Not so in steel challenge.

In terms of performance and points, major generally works out better in competition. If you don't care about that, you can get an open gun and play with minor loads and have fun.
 
relliott said:
Compensated guns are all about finding the right balance for what you want to do with it. If you are interested in shooting major, you want the slowest burning largest gas volume powder you can get to affect the baffles in the comp and thereby reduce muzzle flip. Muzzle flip is not the same as recoil.

If you want to shoot steel challenge the you want a lighter bullet with the largest gas column available, again, to reduce flip.
If you want to shoot open minor you will still want to find a load that gives you the most bang for the buck in the comp to reduce flip. In IPSC Open Division you will be relegated the bullets 120 grains or over. Not so in steel challenge.

In terms of performance and points, major generally works out better in competition. If you don't care about that, you can get an open gun and play with minor loads and have fun.
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In open division the you are limited to 120gr or higher only if you are scoring Major. Minor can use whatever bullets they want. 90gr bullets are wickedly fun to shoot Open minor with.
 
Snow Dog said:
A 115 gr bullet going 1000 fps gives you a Power Factor of 115. (Muzzle velocity x bullet weight divided by 1000 = PF)I don't know enough about Steel Challenge to comment so I'll just assume that is fine for that game. For IPSC, Open guns need to make a PF of 125 to be scored in Minor and 170 for Major. I guess we'll have to see what game the OP was hoping to compete in before adding to the confusion.

As an aside, KK, are there enough Steel Challenge matches in Canada to justify building a dedicated gun for that game? Not trying to be a smart ass - I'm just not that familiar with the game.
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160pf for major in IPSC Open and 165pf for Uspsa Open division
 
just to clarify, all along I thought bullet weight of 120gr. is the minimum regardless of the Power Factor, lighter than that is considered unsafe or prohibited. IPSC RULES), that last time I did a refresher course was 2002. lol
 
ffgats said:
just to clarify, all along I thought bullet weight of 120gr. is the minimum regardless of the Power Factor, lighter than that is considered unsafe or prohibited. IPSC RULES), that last time I did a refresher course was 2002. lol
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If you check appendix D in the rule book each division under minimum bullet weight it says "no" except Open where it says "120 grain for major"
I don't remember exactly when the bullet weight came in, probably around the same time as they reduced Major pf. 115 gr bullets at major was fairly common, I even tried them in my P9 9x21 at around 180 of but they had to be doing over 1500fps to make it. Some that shot 9x25 were using 108gr bullets and the original plan was to get 90gr bullets to make major at 2000fps. Which is also what Col. Cooper had planned for his .38 super cooper.
 
Snow Dog said:
As an aside, KK, are there enough Steel Challenge matches in Canada to justify building a dedicated gun for that game? Not trying to be a smart ass - I'm just not that familiar with the game.
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We have a lot of matches in Alberta. Even though Spruce Grove closed, there are SC matches at BTSA and Brooks. Not sure what's up for the new year but I think Rocky will be the next club to get into it and I wouldn't count Wild Rose out. They may host a match or two someplace else.

My steel guns are the same as my IPSC guns except I take off the ambi safety, slide racker and big mag button. Lots of guy like shooting 1911's but my hands are big enough, I don't see that as an advantage for myself.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
If you check appendix D in the rule book each division under minimum bullet weight it says "no" except Open where it says "120 grain for major"
I don't remember exactly when the bullet weight came in,
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2000 Rule Book following the 1999 General Assembly in Cebu, Philippines.
My first GA - I fondly remember the German RD campaigning hard for it. He wasn't fond of what the light bullets were doing to his steel.

Some that shot 9x25 were using 108gr bullets and the original plan was to get 90gr bullets to make major at 2000fps. Which is also what Col. Cooper had planned for his .38 super cooper.
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I was told that Leatham shot 90 gr bullets with the 175 PF Major in his 9X25 at the World Shoot in 1993 - Bisley, England
Apparently blew the walls out of the chrono tent with the blast - but he did warn them. :)
 
I didn't shoot any IPSC matches last year, but for the two years before that, I was using 147 gr in 9 major. There is a lot less recoil and they shoot flat an accurate. Again, I don't expect anybody to believe me but if you try it, you won't think you're shooting major.
 
Freedom Ventures said:
2000 Rule Book following the 1999 General Assembly in Cebu, Philippines.
My first GA - I fondly remember the German RD campaigning hard for it. He wasn't fond of what the light bullets were doing to his steel.


I was told that Leatham shot 90 gr bullets with the 175 PF Major in his 9X25 at the World Shoot in 1993 - Bisley, England
Apparently blew the walls out of the chrono tent with the blast - but he did warn them. :)
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I'll ask him at SHOT. I didn't think anyone had been able to get that to work.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
If you check appendix D in the rule book each division under minimum bullet weight it says "no" except Open where it says "120 grain for major"
I don't remember exactly when the bullet weight came in, probably around the same time as they reduced Major pf. 115 gr bullets at major was fairly common, I even tried them in my P9 9x21 at around 180 of but they had to be doing over 1500fps to make it. Some that shot 9x25 were using 108gr bullets and the original plan was to get 90gr bullets to make major at 2000fps. Which is also what Col. Cooper had planned for his .38 super cooper.
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sorry, I meant the Open Div. what I did not notice was the " 120gr for major ", meaning 115gr is legal if shooting minor, correct me if I"m wrong, but dont you think it should be base on the velocity and not on the power factor for safety reason?. because I can push my 115 gr.to 1390fps it would still be a minor.
 
ffgats said:
sorry, I meant the Open Div. what I did not notice was the " 120gr for major ", meaning 115gr is legal if shooting minor, correct me if I"m wrong, but dont you think it should be base on the velocity and not on the power factor for safety reason?. because I can push my 115 gr.to 1390fps it would still be a minor.
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But why would you, everyone loads to just a bit over what they need, less recoil the better.
 
xldbldbl said:
But why would you, everyone loads to just a bit over what they need, less recoil the better.
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I load 5-10pf over the limit in all divisions. In production/classic I am around 133pf and in Open I'm 173-174pf. Open works different than the other divisions because of the comps. Running a 115 around that level would likely be pretty flat. I worked up a lot for the Bianchi Cup using 90gr bullets at around 1600fps. The goal was to cut the lead on the mover down to nothing, the side effect was a very, very flat gun. If I was going to play minor Open I would probably try something around 100gr and push it at 1300....of course if you are going to do that kind of old development, you might as well shoot major.
In answer to ffgats, I think the bullet weight solution was the simplest, it takes away the desire to try to push loads over 1500fps (the velocity limit where steel it possibly damaged) some clubs and matches prior to the rule did have velocity limits of 1500fps but it's impossible to enforce without a chrono and I've seen it screwed up even then. Though while its technically easy to check bullet weight I've never seen it done at anything other than a L3.
While there is evidence to support steel being damaged I suspect this was more an excuse to reduce the noise of Open guns. If you haven't been on a range where 115's are shot at major (USPSA allows 115gr, I think their limit is 112gr) or heard a 9x25 you may not understand this. But I've heard many times it was about saving steel but the way the match was run or how it was enforced did little or nothing to protect the steel, anyone that ever went to the Smith and Wesson invitational would know what I mean. And as you point out they put a limit on the bullet weight not the velocity so yeah, you can load 115's to 1500 for fwiw and declare minor and be fine. (Not saying it's a good idea, only that it's possible) and for even something more twisted, again I don't know why you would but, there are no limits on caliber or bullet weight in revolver division, I just looked up some loads and they had one with a 110gr bullet at over 2000fps listed which would be legal AND .357 Sig is allowed for major in standard division with no bullet weight limit for major....so I tend to see this as more of an action taken against Open guns because of the noise they make not the damage done.
 
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