A Canadian collector trend?

flying pig

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I've been lurking around some of the other collector forums for a few years as well as here. Is it just me or is it a Canadian Fad that un-issued rifles seem to be the only ones really desirable here? In the US it seems like these are the ones everyone wants. It worries me because it seems like we are inviting people to clean up and restore rifles that have seen honest combat use. To me these are the ones that are really valuable. They wear all of their history. If anyone wants a prestine, civilian refurbed rifle I have a few of those I'd gladly trade any day for an obvious veteran!

I've been looking like crazy for Lee-Enfields with this look and feel. I've only seen one in three years and sadly I took 'the better deal' on a exc condition M-1917 that I later sold because it was boring.

What do you guys think on this?
 
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old used crusty stained and beat up. generally cheaper and far more interesting. my "Restored" LE has the original butt stock, complete with arsenal repairs, knocks and dings. i like it much better than the brand new fore end it now wears and like it more than my No5, which has no character. I`m 2nd owner, had it about 20 yrs and it is pretty much new.
 
Un-issued rifles are ok. The nice thing about them is they are exactly as they were when they came out of the factory. Personally I am looking more for a representation of the rifle or carbine rather than a mint condition one. That is more to do with price and the fact I would rather have 10 pretty good/good condition rifles than one excellent condition rifle. But if the prices are the same I would go for the mint one every time. If the rifle is faked then I have no interest in it.
People have been faking rifles for years to try to get more money out of them (K98's and the Steyr M95/34's with the waffenants on it come to mind very quickly). Most guns I buy people don't bother faking as they are not nearly as desirable or valuable.
 
Hmm. Tough to know what each person wants. I think it is natural to initially favour the pristine ones, as crossing over from car, house, tractor, whatever buying, we tend to want the better ones.

I lean to the nice ones, but have some that are pretty scruffy as well. I don't consider myself as a high class collector, though, so my tinhorn opinion may or may not mean much. Each to his/her own is the path I try to follow.

What I don't get is when someone posts about a Model XYZ, some expert will take the opportunity to slag the model, or even that particular firearm. It is good when someone who knows what they are talking about will point out any weakness, especially to do with safety. Recently, I chimed in on a thread about No.1 rifles from a certain country. It was pointed out by another that they are poor quality and the poster didn't know why anyone would want to have one. News flash! I collect military rifles, and I pay for them.

I try to post a compliment on the OP's rifle if they have one and have maybe posted a pic. I guess it boils down to our own tastes.

Keep at it. Collect whatever you want. I can certainly understand why people tend to want better condition.:)
 
I agree, I prefer combat used rifles/pistols for the history, same with my old savage 1899's they've been in my family since new some over 100 years old and they show it, used on the trap line for generations. I have only two unissued as new piece's and to be honest I'm really glad I was able to them in the stable.
 
There is ZERO credibility to any claims a rifle is a combat survivor, without some fluke of documentation. The No.4 soldiered in Canada from 1941 to the mid 1960's. Why on earth should anyone believe their No.4's dings and ouches happened in Feb 1945 in Holland, and not on the truck between the cadet's weapons lockup and the range at Camp Farnham in 1964?
 
I like beat up rifles.

Not cause I'm cheap but more because I find them to be more interesting. If I want a "new" gun I'll go to the gun store and buy a rem 700 or something like that.

I shoot my guns a lot so it's bound to happen that I put a ding or scuff on them. Its less stressful to put a ding on a 100 year old rifle that already has wear.

But that being said, I do have several mint condition rifles but they are less exciting to me and tend to spend more time on the rack then on the bench.

To each their own, like Kjohn said collect what you like.
 
I have both museum pieces and beat up ones. Some are safe queens and some are shooters. You get what you can when you can.
 
My collection runs the gamut...some are vg+ - Excellent examples, and some have definite service wear with nicks and bruises. Some types of rifles are near impossible to find in VG on up condition, P14's come to mind but I keep looking... Many times it boils down to what a person can afford. With so little available on the surplus market save for the stuff coming out of Russia, the cupboards are bare and one finds their items of interest where they can.
 
There is ZERO credibility to any claims a rifle is a combat survivor, without some fluke of documentation. The No.4 soldiered in Canada from 1941 to the mid 1960's. Why on earth should anyone believe their No.4's dings and ouches happened in Feb 1945 in Holland, and not on the truck between the cadet's weapons lockup and the range at Camp Farnham in 1964?

Certain things were done at certain times as well though. My Long Branch was built in 42 and FTR'd there in 6/46. It has green paint under the woodwork and is all numbers matching on the barrel, fore end, receiver and bolt and forced matched on the magazine. It has an Ishaphore screw, replacement rear sight and few other small parts. It has a few unique inspection marks. It's a world travel or and has definitely been through the wringer,. No I can't definitively say it has seen combat but I would say that if a Lee-Enfield ever has then surely that's one of them. The Maltby I missed out on was in the same boat. No import marks, browned finish under green paint. Very thick linseed finish with quite a few bruises. The metal was probably 80% in the white and the rest was very patina, green or browned. It just gave that feeling. Weird that it would not have been FTRd at the end of the war. Weirder if it was never issued then issued after the war into Brit service and managed to escape without import marks. If I ran into that rifle again I'd pay a premium to own it.
 
There is ZERO credibility to any claims a rifle is a combat survivor, without some fluke of documentation. The No.4 soldiered in Canada from 1941 to the mid 1960's. Why on earth should anyone believe their No.4's dings and ouches happened in Feb 1945 in Holland, and not on the truck between the cadet's weapons lockup and the range at Camp Farnham in 1964?

the No 4 is still in service with the Canadian Rangers
 
Never have bought a full wood Lee Enfield ever, except for one. That one I had to have because I remember back in the 60's playing with them down in the basement of the old Army&Navy store in Edmonton. No.5 Carbine. All the rest have been poor, abused rifles that just needed a little TLC. Most look like new now but they will never be for sale, at least as long as I am still around.I have never sold a gun and I probably never will. Part of the hobby that I enjoy is to restore a rifle to as close to factory and have it shoot! Hunting for all the bits and pieces and making something out of it gives me more satisfaction than just buying a all complete rifle. Most times it would be much cheaper to buy a complete rifle than spend much more to restore a bitster, but they need love too.
 
I would love a beautiful unissued rifle with a pristine bore, lovely wood, 100% finish and well kept, but in all honesty, it's the ones that are beat to hell that saw numerous refits that have the best stories. it's not just Canadian. I just bought a Enfield I thought was in really good shape but ended up getting ripped off because I didn't think before I bought.
 
Do you mean like on the EE the $1800-$2200 Reparkerized / Restored and Humped M1 Garands with the Boyds Stocks! ;)


CU, you sound bitter. Is someone forcing you to buy over priced pieces or do you really just want them an can't afford them???

I agree, there is a lot of over priced stuff all over every EE on this site and most others.

The thing is, try to find those items somewhere else.

It's like coin collecting, you look up a certain coin and the book shows one that has a dot behind the date. That coin is worth thousands. The book also goes on to explain that all of the rest of the coins, by far the vast majority, have very little value, other than their face value.

As with most coin collectors, they look for the most pristine and rare samples. That doesn't mean they don't have others, that aren't pristine or rare.

I have sold off most of my pristine and rare examples of Lee Enfields. I just couldn't believe how much the prices have risen. They seem to have topped out though, which will be a good thing.

In Chilliwack, I was talking to a fellow that had 5 Lee Enfield No 4 MkI and MkI* rifles on his table. What was significant about the rifles is that they were obviously a well thought out collection. There was a Long Branch, Savage, two British makers and a POF No4 MkII.

What really took my notice, was that they were all in similar 80% condition throughout, they all had bayonets in scabbards, with frogs. They were all marked with the same price. $800.

I asked him where the No5 was and he gave me a blank stare. He told me he had kept one of the rifles because it seemed to be a sporter and was very short and handy. He wants to take up hunting now. He didn't have any other rifles on the table, a few boxes of cartridges and some slings, as well as a few accessories, such as loading equipment and components, all for the 303 Brit.

He had no idea what he had on his table and had garnered the prices from the internet. He of course felt that all of his rifles were real gems and had them priced $350 - $400 above their real value. He really took offence when I showed him some other rifles in similar condition and was sure his were worth more. None of them were special, all were made at the height of the runs with 1943-44 dates, other than the POF.

He was even more upset to find out that he only had a temporary right to have the rifles and that he had to take a PAL course as well as a CORE course to keep the firearm he had selected and hunt with. Miserable bugger as well. Bound and determined that everyone at the show was trying to rip him off. By the way, he was the executor of his brother in law's estate.

I notice on the EE here, as well as others that many of the sellers are very uninformed an inexperienced. Some, are just greedy. I can fully understand asking a price which is above the true value of a piece. The seller can come down in price but can't go up.

Used Remingtons for instance. A new SPS can be had for under $500. That same SPS goes up for sale on the EE at $600 to $700. The seller is bound and determined he/she won't sell it unless they get every dime they put into it out of it, including taxes and shipping, then want to add shipping costs on top of that.

It happens but it isn't the norm. Some people see it happen 20% of the time and complain the whole system is failing. It isn't. Those items are either withdrawn completely or the seller is brought to his/her senses.
 
Why on earth should anyone believe their No.4's dings and ouches happened in Feb 1945 in Holland, and not on the truck between the cadet's weapons lockup and the range at Camp Farnham in 1964?

In my opinion: if the No. 4 is pristine you can't ask that question but if it has "dings and ouches" then you can wonder. I often wonder how my No. 5 has received a few dings, an arsenal repair, and the general look of use... I don't care so much on how it got them, as much as wondering how it got the likely opportunity to be used.

That is just me, though.
 
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