A different spin on the 308 vs 300wm

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brybenn

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So I was chatting with a friend today about cartridges who is completely new and the question came up about how do you know when to move to a bigger case for the same bullet?
The example was hunting big game animals starting with deer than black bear than moose. I gave him my answer with the tip that everyone will be different as it's just the velocity that changes if using the same bullet.
So I was hoping to use this thread to show him varying opinions on when to move to a larger case
Personally I'd use the 308 to 200 yards on moose. 250 yards on bear and 300 yards on deer before moving to a 300wm to reach further for each.
So at what distance do you reach for a bigger cartridge?
 
My story may not be helpful - I have never taken a bear or a moose - but several elk and many deer - white-tails and mule deer. My first elk was circa 250 yard shot - with a 165 grain 308 Win - was the only centre-fire rifle I owned then, so that one was the one that got picked for that trip. Was NOT a good kill - was many hours of tracking before I shot it in the back of the head - and several times I was sure that I had lost it completely. I would say the bullet placement was not correct - on me, not the cartridge - that first shot took the liver - so too far back - on me, for taking an off-hand shot at that range. The next year I was back in same area with a 338 Win Mag - and eventually took two more elk with that 338 - either could have been easily taken with the 308 Win, but was what I had - circa 90 yards for the second elk and about 12 to 15 feet for the third one.
 
Currently I don't. My little 7mm08 holds 2000+fps past 400 yards, and I don't shoot game that far. The only animals I wouldn't feel comfortable hunting with that cartridge is Grizzly and Bison.

I want to buy a bigger gun for the sake of having a bigger gun, and I'll absolutely call it my moose gun, but realistically I don't NEED to upsize. Its more an excuse to buy another gun than it is something I feel like I need.
 
I'd reach for a bigger cartridge when I feel comfortable with my ability to shoot farther than the maximum point blank range of my current cartridge.
ie. I start with a .308, my shooting ability is such that I shouldn't be shooting at animals beyond 250 yards, and that's fine because I can hold dead center up to that distance with a .308. If I practice more and get to where I can confidently shoot to 350 or 400 yards, I have a decision to make: step up in velocity (.300 mag, pick a flavour) so I can continue to hold more or less dead center out to my maximum distance, or learn my holds/how to dial with turrets with my trusty .308 and depend on a rangefinder. (Beyond about 400 things start to get more complicated and I'm of the belief that circumstances in the field are rarely such that it's a good idea to try shots at that distance. I'm not going to starve without the meat and it's not worth the massively increased risk of making a bad hit)
A lot of people, possibly including me, don't actually gain by going to a flatter shooting cartridge because they're less comfortable shooting the rifle and their accuracy deteriorates, negating the advantages of the bigger cartridge. This can be managed with heavier rifle weights, muzzle brakes, etc. but there's always a trade off. Took a .300 Wby Ultralight on my last elk trip, love the rifle because it's an absolute laser-hammer but I'm a little afraid of it.
The OP's question seemed more to lean toward the killing ability of one cartridge vs the other and I wouldn't worry about that as much, especially for a new hunter. I hunt moose every year, killed 10 or 11 so far and watched many others killed. Never seen a moose lost due to inadequate horsepower of the cartridge. Hit vitals with a bullet from a legal centerfire rifle cartridge and they will die. Energy needed is a great theory but that's about all it is.
I use magnum cartridges now for the most part because I don't want to be limited to broadside/quartering away shots. If I get one opportunity all season and it's a quartered-towards-me angle, I want a tough bullet and enough power to send it through large bones and thick muscles. Would a .308 do that at 300 yards on a moose? Maybe, but I'd feel better with more oomph in that situation.
 
Shot my first Bull Moose when i was 17 with a .308. Since then I’ve touted 7RM, .300WM, .300 WSM and currently 30-06 and .300WBY.

The 7RM and 300Wby moves were mostly based on the vast/open Cuts we were hunting at certain times/yrs and wanting a little more speed, flatness and whomp at the end.

For the majority of those years however either the .308 or ‘06 would’ve been more than sufficient at the typical 200yrd max I encountered. Beyond the 200 mark a little extra ft/lbs and heavier for Cal projectile is never a bad thing imo.

Reality is, most of us like tinkering with new Cals and setups. If it means moving up under the guise of extra reach and hp? Don’t worry, we’ve all used that excuse before too lol
 
There is no reason not to buy a bigger cartridge if you just want it. However the reasoning that you "need" more killing power is sophomoric BS. Killing power is 99% bullet placement and a bigger cartridge won't help that, if anything it could hurt that because more recoil makes practicing more difficult.

The lowly 308 Win can kill anything in N America, given decent marksmanship and bullet placement at any distance within the range the typical hunter should be shooting.

FWIW a bigger case for the same caliber is mostly about being able to push a heavier bullet at similar speeds. Nobody uses a 150gr in a 300WM.
 
I agree with what been posted so far. My "moose" gun is a 458wm. I prefer close shots as I primarily hunt with a cross bow so I'm all about getting close. I bought the 458wm because I want to go to Africa so I just use it when I can until I get there.
I never seem to keep any 3006s and I've sold my last 2 300wm rifles. Currently have a 308 that I like but have only shot a couple grouse with it. I don't hunt moose or elk so black bears are my big game of choice for center fire rifle.

As for my buddy one shop told him a 300wm was the best cartridge for anything and another told him it was too much gun for north america and suggested the 308 so naturally he was confused.
I admit I did like my 300wm over the 308 but I have no real reason as to why. Coyotes and crows are the only long range shooting I do. Other than targets
 
Given that 300 meters is my personal, ethical distance for hunting big game I don’t have to move to a bigger cartridge. I would move to a bigger cartridge if I felt like it, but the added recoil doesn’t help your accuracy in the field. And a faster moving bullet that’s less accurate doesn’t do you any good when shooting longer ranges.
 
An encounter at the range the other day was in my mind the exact opposite of what should occur. I was shooting 2 different rifles, 6mm ARC and 222 REM. Both very accurate but only used for varmints and paper. Using a heavy front rest and rear bag, things were going well! Guy sets up beside me with a 30-06 getting dialed in for deer season. Shooting off his elbows on a wood bench I checked his target a few times. When we went to retrieve our targets he looked at mine and then his. He asked what I was shooting and I told him. He said his motto was to get a bigger gun to make up for his lack of skills! I’m thinking he has it backwards!
 
brybenn said:
So at what distance do you reach for a bigger cartridge?
Click to expand...
I hunt with .303 & .308, if I’m at a distance that is too far for them to ethically kill large game I generally try to get closer. I keep max distance to 200-250m and that’s long for my hunting areas, 80-150m is the norm.

I’ll probably buy a magnum rifle at some point but not because I feel it’s needed for any large game I hunt, the .303 & .308 already handle that well. Shot placement is more what I concern myself with.
 
For the .308. I use strictly 165 grain bullets. In the .300 Winchester, I use 200 grain bullets. I want a round that will perform if I have to shoot an animal length-wise, either from the front or the back.
 
I’m no expert so take this with a grain of salt.

From what I have researched and witnessed in my limited experience. It seems that every bullet has a velocity window that it works in.

For example let’s say you have a 200 grain bullet that expands well at 2000 fps and completely comes apart at 3000 fps. You want to hunt your moose or whatever at a max distance of 300 yards.

Using a 308 you are likely to drop below your velocity window at 200 yards because the lack of powder would move the bullet slower (approx 2500 max at the muzzle in this case).

So to use that bullet to hunt at that distance you would need to send it with the 300 win mag. That would put you inside your velocity window.
 
It's not just about distance...

Yesterday a good friend, who's just getting into hunting & shooting, called me up asking which centre fire rifle he should get if he was to only have ONE big game rifle. I said I'd just go with a 308 bolt & be done with it.

To which he said what about bison? (He's in AB) And I said there's a legal minimum: "A centre fire rifle that has a minimum size of 30 calibre and delivers 2,800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle (30-06, 180 grain is minimum)."

So, I said get a stainless synthetic Tikka T3 in 30-06 & be done with it. We also had a chat about getting 'even more gun', like 300WM or 338WM and I said that as a relatively new shooter, he likely would not like the recoil & poor groups would result...
 
yidava25 said:
I'd reach for a bigger cartridge when I feel comfortable with my ability to shoot farther than the maximum point blank range of my current cartridge.
ie. I start with a .308, my shooting ability is such that I shouldn't be shooting at animals beyond 250 yards, and that's fine because I can hold dead center up to that distance with a .308. If I practice more and get to where I can confidently shoot to 350 or 400 yards, I have a decision to make: step up in velocity (.300 mag, pick a flavour) so I can continue to hold more or less dead center out to my maximum distance, or learn my holds/how to dial with turrets with my trusty .308 and depend on a rangefinder. (Beyond about 400 things start to get more complicated and I'm of the belief that circumstances in the field are rarely such that it's a good idea to try shots at that distance. I'm not going to starve without the meat and it's not worth the massively increased risk of making a bad hit)
A lot of people, possibly including me, don't actually gain by going to a flatter shooting cartridge because they're less comfortable shooting the rifle and their accuracy deteriorates, negating the advantages of the bigger cartridge. This can be managed with heavier rifle weights, muzzle brakes, etc. but there's always a trade off. Took a .300 Wby Ultralight on my last elk trip, love the rifle because it's an absolute laser-hammer but I'm a little afraid of it.
The OP's question seemed more to lean toward the killing ability of one cartridge vs the other and I wouldn't worry about that as much, especially for a new hunter. I hunt moose every year, killed 10 or 11 so far and watched many others killed. Never seen a moose lost due to inadequate horsepower of the cartridge. Hit vitals with a bullet from a legal centerfire rifle cartridge and they will die. Energy needed is a great theory but that's about all it is.
I use magnum cartridges now for the most part because I don't want to be limited to broadside/quartering away shots. If I get one opportunity all season and it's a quartered-towards-me angle, I want a tough bullet and enough power to send it through large bones and thick muscles. Would a .308 do that at 300 yards on a moose? Maybe, but I'd feel better with more oomph in that situation.
Click to expand...
Great answer. I'm a newb. I have a 308. I ha e no intention at this point to even think past 250. In time, and after alot of practice I'll go bigger. Besides 300wm, are there other cartridges that are comparable?
 
"comparable" to 300 Win Mag - I currently have a 300 H&H and a 308 Norma Magnum - you do not mention if you hand load or not - if hand loaded, not a lot of difference, those ones to factory 300 Win Mag. Even the 300 Weatherby Mag is a moderate step up - not real sure most shooters could demonstrate a difference. Barrel length likely makes a lot of difference. There are, of course, bigger - various 8 mm, and so on - most often based on the 375 H&H case or the 404 Jeffery case - but as the size goes up, so does the recoil and fewer and fewer shooters can shoot them well. I have read that a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets about the "cut-off" that most inexperienced shooters can handle well - many who have a 300 Win Mag, would shoot better if they had a lesser cartridge. Many would point to 7 mm bore as about appropriate for 99% of hunters and 99% of hunting shots - they can range from diminutive to impressive, depending on the case.
 
I suspect most rifles beyond the 300 Win Mag are likely to be more expensive to buy, and factory ammo is likely "in the nose bleed section", these days. Many hunters, who are also good rifleman, can do very well with cartridges as small as 243 Win or 22-250 Rem.
 
In the 30 cal realm of the 308 & the 30-06, I'll take the 308 every time !
I've never liked the '06...don't ask me why, cuz I really just don't have a good answer. Could be I found the 308 was easier to load for, and always seemed more accurate with my hand loads.
I've owned a couple of them both in the past, shot them, hunted with them for several yrs, took a few deer with both, including a beautiful Win mod 70 ( that kicked the livin shiite outta me and everyone else...even worse than my 300 WM or my 7mm RM ! LOL ) sold them or traded them all off.
Been 30 + years since I've owned an '06. I even kept my old 300 WM and 7 RM for a number of yrs after my 06's left home. I thought the 300 WM would be my final step up for me and my hunting life...wrong..LOL

When Browning added the WSM's to their stainless A-Bolt series, then & there I settled on the 300 WSM ! Love the short action / magnum option. I've had this rifle since first yr of production about 2002/03 ? I stepped up then and never looked back really. Actually my son just took it last night, to take to his stand this morning...he has a large bruin hanging out he's like to harvest !

Peterson's magazines back in the day always had the cartridge of the month feature. The maximum point blank range (MPR) they showed for all the calibers was KOOL ! That was always our goto ! It was how we sighted in our rifles wayyy back then...I still do. We hunted some 350-400 yd cut overs also some 60-75 yd clearings...the 300 Shortmag did it all for me !

Age and health issues have depleted my stable of fine work horses over the past 5 yrs. I still have my tried and proven S/S A-Bolt II in 300 WSM, Dad's old Win 94 / 30-30 my old Stevens 200 in 270 cal...my Tikka 6.5x55, my S/S A-Bolt II in 243 and my newest acquisition...my Tikka 6.5 PRC !!
I have a soft spot for the short magnums...esp the 6.5's and the 300's !!

There's lots of step-up calibers available now...wayy more options than what we had in the 70's & 80's.

If you can, get comfortable with what ever caliber you want to shoot. Try out a few from friends. Don't be afraid to say..this one kicks too much...maybe I'll try something else.
 
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