A few questions about the Tavor...

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12GaugeShotty

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I have recently taken an interest in the Tavor and I was wondering if it is worth getting with the new Micro Tavor coming out. I like the fact that it is non-restricted but I am worried about replacement parts and such. I read the sticky FAQ about the Tavor and didn't really see anything pertaining to these questions. Maybe I missed it. Can somebody help me out?

Thanks, Jon.
 
The micro isn't a be-all replacement to the tar-21 despite the Israeli's replacing it by 2011 in their forces. the micro serves their purposes because most of their combat is urban CQB situations.
 
I have recently taken an interest in the Tavor and I was wondering if it is worth getting with the new Micro Tavor coming out. I like the fact that it is non-restricted but I am worried about replacement parts and such. I read the sticky FAQ about the Tavor and didn't really see anything pertaining to these questions. Maybe I missed it. Can somebody help me out?
Thanks, Jon.

I don't think the Tavor poses any more challenges to ordering spare parts than similar rifles, say a Swiss Arms, and certainly no more so than something like a PS90 or FS2000. From a reliability standpoint, I've had zero problems with my Tavor thus far. You can't beat the non-restricted aspect.

My understanding from CanadaAmmo is that if/when the X95 becomes available (think late 2010), it's going to be quite a bit pricier than the Tavor. And restricted.
 
The micro isn't a be-all replacement to the tar-21 despite the Israeli's replacing it by 2011 in their forces. the micro serves their purposes because most of their combat is urban CQB situations.

Wait a minute, I thought the "advantage" to the Tavor was its shorter OAL while maintaining a full length barrel. The same "advanage" claimed by all bullpup rifles. Perhaps its not as handy as the new micro, I can give them that. No wait, if the micro is what IDF needs for CQB/CQC/FIBUA/FISH then what is the advantage of the Tavor for those who don't engage in such activities? I mean it is non-res so there won't be any tight quarters work in the field, right? I got it, there is no advantage.......

I don't think the Tavor poses any more challenges to ordering spare parts than similar rifles, say a Swiss Arms, and certainly no more so than something like a PS90 or FS2000. From a reliability standpoint, I've had zero problems with my Tavor thus far. You can't beat the non-restricted aspect.

My understanding from CanadaAmmo is that if/when the X95 becomes available (think late 2010), it's going to be quite a bit pricier than the Tavor. And restricted.

How long did Tavor owners wait for the "civvie" bolt(or was it firing pin?) because the original design was flawed? I'm a bit fuzzy here but I believe it was over a year. Not exactly speedy replacement.

TDC
 
Wait a minute, I thought the "advantage" to the Tavor was its shorter OAL while maintaining a full length barrel. The same "advanage" claimed by all bullpup rifles. Perhaps its not as handy as the new micro, I can give them that. No wait, if the micro is what IDF needs for CQB/CQC/FIBUA/FISH then what is the advantage of the Tavor for those who don't engage in such activities???????? I got it, nothing.......

My understanding is that the X95 is going to complement the Tavor. The IDF is still phasing out a lot of US weapons, so I don't see them dropping the Tavor like a rock.

How long did Tavor owners wait for the "civvie" bolt because the original design was flawed? I'm a bit fuzzy here but I believe it was over a year. Not exactly speedy replacement. TDC

I don't believe it was 'flawed', just that the bolt was designed for use in full auto. From what I gather the number of instances where slam fires, etc. were encountered were somewhat rare, but I could certainly be wrong. I'm not sure a year is such an unrealistic timeframe to re-manufacture an improved bolt, especially considering there's probably not a fairly extensive semi-automatic market for the Tavor (outside of Canada, can you think of any country where it's in civilian hands?)

Yeah, not speedy per say, but CanadaAmmo stood behind their product, so that says a lot.
 
My understanding is that the X95 is going to complement the Tavor. The IDF is still phasing out a lot of US weapons, so I don't see them dropping the Tavor like a rock.



I don't believe it was 'flawed', just that the bolt was designed for use in full auto. From what I gather the number of instances where slam fires, etc. were encountered were somewhat rare, but I could certainly be wrong. I'm not sure a year is such an unrealistic timeframe to re-manufacture an improved bolt, especially considering there's probably not a fairly extensive semi-automatic market for the Tavor (outside of Canada, can you think of any country where it's in civilian hands?)

Yeah, not speedy per say, but CanadaAmmo stood behind their product, so that says a lot.

I agree that CANAM stood behind their product and that is to be commended. The bolt issue was total BS. It had nothing to do with "civilian" primers/ammo and everything to do with a flawed design. So much for R&D I guess. The Tavor is the only rifle I've heard of that requires special parts/pieces to run "civilian" ammo.

I understand that the micro will compliment the Tavor and other systems already in use. I'm simply poking at those who believed it was the be all to end all of rifles when in fact its perceived benefits aren't being seen by the IDF and are of little to no use for the civilian shooter.

TDC
 
The bolts were not flawed. The gun was, and is, designed for 5.56x45 and military primers. Many other guns experienced this same issue. I know Norinco installed springs on the civi T84 for this reason, as did others.

Our guns are the only guns to use the new spring. The military guns continue to use the free floating pin. It is only the lack of 5.56 ammo in Canada that required the change.

Whether you want a bullpup gun, and it's long barrel with short OAL, is simply a matter of choice.
 
The bolts were not flawed. The gun was, and is, designed for 5.56x45 and military primers. Many other guns experienced this same issue. I know Norinco installed springs on the civi T84 for this reason, as did others.

Our guns are the only guns to use the new spring. The military guns continue to use the free floating pin. It is only the lack of 5.56 ammo in Canada that required the change.

Whether you want a bullpup gun, and it's long barrel with short OAL, is simply a matter of choice.

The Tavor and cheap Chinese crap required the "fix". Right, Do tell, why is it that every AR manufacturer has yet to install a non free floating firing pin?? Why are there no slam fire issues with other rifles that sport free floating firing pins?? It has nothing to do with the ammo, that was a cover story for a design flaw. Whether that flaw be in the bolt, firing pin, entire rifle, it doesn't matter its still a flaw.

TDC
 
You seem to be angry and accusatory about this. I cannot understand why.

Before you make these statements, you need to do your research:

http://www.armalite.com/images/Tech%20Notes%5CTech%20Note%2010,%20Prevention%20of%20Slamfires%20981226.pdf

2. Because of inertial energy remaining when the bolt closes, the firing pin of a number of rifle
models such as the Ml rifle and carbine, M-14 rifle, and most ArmaLite patent rifles, strikes the
cartridge primer lightly upon chambering a round. This light strike normally will not cause the
primer to fire, but it is possible. Government 5.56mm (.223) cartridges are loaded with a thick
cupped primer to provide assurance that such an occurrence is rare. Government and
commercial 7.62mm (.308) primers are not harden ed in this manner.

3. The AR- 10 design includes a firing pin spring which reduces the inertial energy of the firing
pin to a very safe level. Extensive firing has confirmed that the firing pin spring almost totally
cures slamfire without reducing ignition reliability. No case of slamfire or misfire has been
observed in an AR- 10 equipped with the firing pin spring.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/SlamFire.htm

Slam Fire: a Parable...

by Walt Kuleck


During the development of the M16, field testing revealed an unexpected tendency to slam fire, that is, for the cartridge being chambered to discharge without the trigger having been pulled. Needless to say, this created much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the Technical Coordinating Committee. Since Secretary McNamara had been led to believe that the M16 was a fully developed weapon system, the fault had to lie with the ammunition.
Thus the Remington executive was brought forth and mightly chastised for the high crime and misdemeanor, "high primers." When the Remington man revealed that examination of tens of thousands of cartridges revealed no high primers, and that were the fault to be with the primer height one would expect out-of-battery fires rather than slam fires, he was told, "never mind."
Then Springfield Armory did a kinetic analysis and Lo! The firing pin inertial energy was 10 inch pounds! And the specified "no fire" energy level for the primer was 6 inch pounds! And the multitude stood in wonder, wondering why the d*mn thing didn't slam fire every time!
But, the M16 was a fully developed weapon system, so the primer, it must be changed! Only after a yield analysis revealed a potential 90% scrap rate with the new spec, was that avenue abandoned.
And in the end, Colt lightened the firing pin, and all was well again. Until Ball Powder, but that is another story.
Oh, and in 1941 Springfield Armory lightened the M1 Rifle firing pin. That couldn't have been to reduce slam fires, could it?
Some folks never learn.
And that's the rest of the story.
--Walt Kuleck
PS: The story of the M16 firing pin, the .223's primer hardness, et.al., can be found in Stevens & Ezell's "The Black Rifle":
Just a few links regarding this subject from a Google search:

http://www.nles.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=1293
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-6358.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-300735.html
http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php?t-7022.html
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/sks/43857-sks-slamfires.html
 
The Tavor and cheap Chinese crap required the "fix". Right, Do tell, why is it that every AR manufacturer has yet to install a non free floating firing pin?? Why are there no slam fire issues with other rifles that sport free floating firing pins?? It has nothing to do with the ammo, that was a cover story for a design flaw. Whether that flaw be in the bolt, firing pin, entire rifle, it doesn't matter its still a flaw.
TDC

Do you even own a Tavor? Why such hostility... I won't even begin to equate a Tavor to an AR-15. I own both; the Tavor is much easier to shoot, clean and maintain. That being said, I own both for different reasons. I've never had any slam fires. Then again, I always ran mil-spec ammo.
 
I'm not angry, I never bought one and don't intend to. I'm just saying that the story about mil spec ammo is crap.

TDC

ETA: I've never experienced a slam fire and neither has anyone I've witnessed shooting one.

Blaxsun,
Ease of cleaning/maintenance is really a non issue as cleaning has nothing to do with in use performance. Marksmanship fundamentals are the same for all weapons systems. Master the fundamentals and the firearm is just a tool. All those issues aside. The only real benefit I see is the non-res classification.

Difficult reloads
Fixed LOP
Inability to transition to support side
Not lefty friendly without changing parts
Cheap plastic sights
Excessive offset
Included optic that no one really wants but you pay for
Large exposed trigger guard
The gas in the face when shooting

Call me crazy but all these issues stack up against the benefit of non-res. For the same coin I'd sooner run a Swiss or save a bundle and run a CZ858. None of the above issues for equal or lesser cost.
 
I'm not angry, I never bought one and don't intend to. I'm just saying that the story about mil spec ammo is crap.
TDC

Sorry dude, but if you owned one and had personally experienced a slam fire with both civilian and mil-spec ammunition, your argument would have a lot more credibility. I'm only aware of a few incidents, and they were all with civilian .223.
 
Call me crazy but all these issues stack up against the benefit of non-res. For the same coin I'd sooner run a Swiss or save a bundle and run a CZ858. None of the above issues for equal or lesser cost.

To each their own, I guess. I have a Swiss CQB. Great gun; different class though and restricted. Heavier, fixed sights and no standard mounts. A few more $, too. And no optics inclusive. This isn't a comparison; they're both great, wouldn't part with either.
 
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