A question of Precision

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civilian84

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Hi, I am new to the gun community.

I am a beginner in this and looking to start shooting.

The question of which rifle to purchase is of course an important one and I do not want to make a mistake.

For some people the choice boils down to personal preference, others the level of accuracy.

I would like to know what the opinions are of some members here as to what I should look into for my first rifle.

I've heard remmington 700 makes nice rifles, and i've seen the names Savage and Tikka pop up quite a few times as well.

Can somebody give me the #'s on these rifles and compare them in a comprehensive way?

Purchasing a rifle is an investment, and I'd like to make an informed decision among these 3 names, or others if members feel necessary to add.

Any and all advice here is well appreciated, I thank you for your help.

Thanks.
 
It all comes down to use of the firearm,and budget.
You may find what your after on this forum.
There are Tactical tough as nails stuff out there thats very accurate.
There are firearms that some folks are afraid to take outdoors they are that nice.
And then you got the utility, which is reliable, in expensive , but gets the job done.
Frank
 
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I would like to leave this question open to hear a variety of things.

If you like a gun and think it is the best, tell me why.

I am interested in something that is durable, but maintains a competitive accuracy.

.308 would be nice.

In addition to that, I'm not worrying about budget because I'd expect a good rifle to last me years upon years, giving time to modify and upgrade it as necessary. Adaptability would be another good criteria.

By all means, tell me what you own, what you like, how accurate it is, how powerful, what accessories (scopes etc), whatever. I really would like to make an informed choice on a reliable, accurate rifle system.
 
civilian84 said:
I would like to leave this question open to hear a variety of things.

If you like a gun and think it is the best, tell me why.

I am interested in something that is durable, but maintains a competitive accuracy.

.308 would be nice.

In addition to that, I'm not worrying about budget because I'd expect a good rifle to last me years upon years, giving time to modify and upgrade it as necessary. Adaptability would be another good criteria.

By all means, tell me what you own, what you like, how accurate it is, how powerful, what accessories (scopes etc), whatever. I really would like to make an informed choice on a reliable, accurate rifle system.
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You just described a Remington 700 my friend; if you want an accurate .308 look at the VS. It's a heavy barrel in an HS Precision stock, good value, and well priced.

I say Remington 700 as just about any smith knows it well for custom work and the amount of accessories available make it the benchmark, plus they will of course last a lifetime.
 
PS, why not buy all three? It's the only way to formulate an opinion on them, listening to what others say only goes so far and is typically heavily biased :)

I don't mean buy them all at once, but buy them on the board here on the site, try them and then flip/resell them. You could probably try all three for $150 in shipping costs, and get to play with each as long as you wish, keeping whatever you like. I've tried a zillion guns this way, there's no substitute for firsthand experience.
 
This is one of those slippery questions because most of us have different ideas of what constitutes acceptable or "good" accuracy and precision.

Accuracy - how close a given shot hits to point of aim.

Precision - how consistent the rifle is (ie. group size)

The average benchrest shooter is going to consider a barrel wornout and inconsistent when it still shoots much better than most off the shelf rifles.

If you're going to "work it over" and change things to make it more precise/accurate then the base gun doesn't matter so much as how well known it is and how available parts etc are. The base rifle matters less if thats the route.
 
I'm trying to leave this thread open ended as possible to your input....

Accuracy/Precision to me means the same thing.

Consistency is pretty much implied in saying "Accurate" or "precise".


What do you shoot from, Rapt?

tell me about your gun.
 
Remington 700 Police or VS in 308; 26" heavy parkerized barrel, a stiff HS Precision synthetic stock with aluminum bedding block that is not affected by weather, a factory trigger that can be easily tuned (by qualified gunsmiths) into a dream, accuracy in the half minute range (1/2" at 100m with handloads) when you do your part and all for a cost of about $950 before taxes. Another plus is that most of the high end accessories such as scope mounts and rings are designed for the Remington 700 police/VS. The 700 Police and the 700VS are the same rifle with different stocks, the Police stock has palm swells and dual front swivels while the VS does not.

A comparable choice is the Savage 12BVSS in 308; 26" heavy stainless fluted barrel, heavy laminated wood stock with aluminum pillar bedding that is also weather proof, factory equipped with AccuTrigger (easily adjusted by anyone), accuracy wise, based on my own experience with a Savage FV 308, it is competitive with a Remington 700 Police/VS using good handloads. Cost of a Savage 12BVSS is about $800 before taxes. I prefer the BVSS over similiar Savages such as FV and FP because I believe the laminated stock on the BVSS is better than the synthetic stocks on the other Savages.

A Baush & Lomb (Bushnell) Elite 4200 6-24x40 with adjustable objective and mil dots can be had for under $600. While not as expensive as the other brands such as Leupold etc., this scope has target knobs and enough elevation adjustments that'll allow you to make repeatable clicks to every range up to about 600m. It's a real performance scope at moderate price.

Both rifles will last for quite a while. The FBI, Army and Marine snipers rebarrel their sniper rifles after about 3000 rds but for our purposes we can probably stretch that to about 5000 (just a guess, my own 700VS has about 2000 rds and is still going strong).

In the end it's still a personal decision. Go to a store, inspect each rifle and ask yourself which one you feel proud about owning.
 
Open ended your question most certainly is. However, you give a frame of reference and that is your cartridge choice - the 308.

Since that is very middle of the road, I will offer you some middle of the road suggestions. First off, the best way to improve in this sport is trigger time. Trigger time costs money. Trigger time also causes fatigue through recoil and boredom through waiting for barrels to cool.

The larger the case, the higher the recoil, the more expensive to shoot, the smaller the number of shots before barrel overheats, the longer the wait for it to cool.

SOOOOO, why not a fast twist 223? All the benefits of the 308 and none of the downsides.

The best entry level platform is the Savage 12FV. With minimal work, the rifle can shoot better then most. Lots of aftermarket when you are ready to upgrade. 1/2 the cost of most other comparable rifles which gives you the funds to go get reload equipment, better optics and practise, practise, practise.

Once you get started, I am sure that you will find many different exciting and interesting avenues to follow. Take Ardents advice, try it all.

Jerry
 
"No competition.
Competitive accuracy means at par with other high end rifles."

Then you have to build a high end rifle, forget off the shelf if that is what you really want. If a Rem was as good as a "high end" rifle then "high end" would not exist.
 
OK, most people seem to start with those "off the shelf" guns and modify them to certain specs. That is why I was asking about those. I would start there and build on the platform.


any thoughts on .308 vs .300 win mag?
 
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civilian84 said:
OK, most people seem to start with those "off the shelf" guns and modify them to certain specs. That is why I was asking about those. I would start there and build on the platform.


any thoughts on .308 vs .300 win mag?
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Are you hunting? If so, usually a .308 will do anyhow, but not as well if you're after moose at 500 yards, which isn't likely. Are you shooting LR? Neither is an optimal choice, but both are workable. How far do you want to shoot? If it's far, leave both alone and go for a better LR cal. Out of the two, .308 hands down, if you're stuck on .30's, and your questions make me believe you're a fairly new shooter, not great to 'get started' with a .300WM...
 
Remington and Savage are excellent precision starter rifles and the route I think you should go being new, I said it in a previous post and will say it again here. Start off with something out of the box with a decent scope and spend the money practicing and finding what you like. Develope your marksmanship skills, without a basic and good footing in marksmanship spending big dollars on custom precision rifles is going to be a disapointing experiance, blameing a rifle for your lack of ability. Most rifles even out of the box will outshoot most of the men behind the bolt, so spend the money on range time (ammo/reloading components) getting your skills up, finding out what you like and dislike...(everyone is different) and if long range is your thing and go from there.

Just an opinion
 
Well - As a new shooter, the precision you can achieve is limited by your own skills ie most "factory" varmint rifles will shoot better than you. You could likely get by with a standard weight factory rifle, particularly in a lighter calibre like 223. Mysticplayers comments about recoil are to be considered - I'd say 50% of new shooters suffer from recoil flinch that is hard to overcome. Have you ever shot a 300 win mag? ( My practical limit is 308, with heavy barrel. My preference is 6.5X55 in standard barrel - which I can use for hunting.)
You'll need to learn reloading, and the process of working up a load, as part of shooting skills development - its not just the rifle. (To me, this is the fun part!)
You'd be surprised what can be achieved with a 200$ bubba'd milsurp in the hands of someone with the right skills - dont get too pre-occupied about hardware considerations at this early stage.
 
Rather than buying a rifle right away, I would suggest making contact with the Provincial Rifle Association in your province, and getting out to a range. Do a bit of shooting. If you go to www.dcra.ca, you can go find connections to all the PRAs. If you are in Ontario, the ORA holds introductory days. Or find a local club. If you are going to shoot a centrefire rifle, you are going to need a place to shoot, so making contact with a club is a good idea.
 
civilian84 said:
I'm a completely new shooter. A remington might be what i want it seems, since the gun can grow with my skill.
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OK then, good to know. .300 Mag would be gross overkill and is a chore to shoot for most. Plus it means tons of muzzle blast, recoil or course, a hot barrel in just a handful of rounds (which means you don't get to shoot with appreciable accuracy, not to mention damaging your barrel, for 10 to 20 minutes while it cools.)

If you're relatively new on the trigger, I wouldn't be looking at a .308 just yet. Few listen, but you will benefit HUGELY by buying an accurate .22LR and a good scope you can put on your centerfire when you buy it. The CZ452 Vamrint is a heavy barrel .22 for just over $400 and very accurate, I shoot to 200 yards with mine regularily. Practicing with this, for pennies compared to shooting centerfire, will make you a far better shot when you do move up, and even today with a bunch of precision rigs in the safe my favorite to shoot just for kicks are my accurate .22's. The CZ452 is the one in the background in the pic below, and as you can see I still use it, I didn't just sell it and 'move up'. In the foreground is a .308 precision rig, it weighs about 14lbs, and from prone off the bipod the recoil is still enough to make it much less fun than the .22LR. You'll never regret taking this advice.

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