A question of Precision

Ardent said:
OK then, good to know. .300 Mag would be gross overkill and is a chore to shoot for most. Plus it means tons of muzzle blast, recoil or course, a hot barrel in just a handful of rounds (which means you don't get to shoot with appreciable accuracy, not to mention damaging your barrel, for 10 to 20 minutes while it cools.)
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Ardent, I agree with everything you said in this post except what you have on the .300 win Mag. Sorry but I have to disagree with everything you wrote about it. A .300WM is most definatly not a rifle for a new shooter, but mine has absolutely NO recoil less than a .223. Is a dream to shoot for comfort, ballance trigger pull, accuracy repeatable shooting, range, not a barrel burner, energy....everything about it I love, and my wife love's it so much she is having ATRS build her a similar one to mine in .300WM with a Robertson Master Class prone stock. I should e-mail you the video of her shooting mine. .300WM Rocks!!:)
 
Long Range Canuck said:
Ardent, I agree with everything you said in this post except what you have on the .300 win Mag. Sorry but I have to disagree with everything you wrote about it. A .300WM is most definatly not a rifle for a new shooter, but mine has absolutely NO recoil less than a .223. Is a dream to shoot for comfort, ballance trigger pull, accuracy repeatable shooting, range, not a barrel burner, energy....everything about it I love, and my wife love's it so much she is having ATRS build her a similar one to mine in .300WM with a Robertson Master Class prone stock. I should e-mail you the video of her shooting mine. .300WM Rocks!!:)
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Sounds interesting, does it have a brake? I imagine it weighs a wee bit too. Sounds like a neat rig, nice part about the big .30's is you can actually use the higher BC bullets as they have the horsepower to launch them. I've never built a big .30, but my only experience with a .300WM comes from a Rem Mountain Rifle, and that gun is what I based my remarks on. I gotta concede that's not a great place to base a stereotype.
 
I will have to completly agree with any comments on the Rem 700 VS in 308,
It was my first rifle i bought with competition in mind, it could shoot .5-.75 " 5shot groups quite consitantlyat 100yards, I put a bushnell 3200 10x tactical scope on it with leup rings and a harris bipod, all for 1400ish, looked nice and shot well... I honestly never got into any real long range shooting with it so i cant contest to any experience, and to this day ive not gotten out past 100 yards!..
this year I bought a sako trg, & an ORA membership! things will be different!!
 
Ardent, so glad that you brought up the 22LR. The greatest training cartridge ever invented.

Many quality target rifles today will shoot 1 to 2MOA at 200yds. Very few shooters can shoot that well on average.

If I were to get into LR competition, a 22LR would be a must have for condition training and recoil consistency. It is much harder to shoot a 7lbs 22LR to the rifles ability at 200yds, then some of the cal/cartridges heavy rigs I play with at 1000m.

you no longer have to worry about recoil, costs are very low even with quality match ammo, lots of trigger time, really watching conditions cause any change will throw you around.

Pity we overlook the basics.

Jerry
 
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mysticplayer said:
Ardent, so glad that you brought up the 22LR. The greatest training cartridge ever invented.

Many quality target rifles today will shoot 1 to 2MOA at 200yds. Very few shooters can shoot that well on average.

If I were to get into LR competition, a 22LR would be a must have for condition training and recoil consistency. It is much harder to shoot a 7lbs 22LR to the rifles ability at 200yds, then some of the cal/cartridges heavy rigs I play with at 1000m.

you no longer have to worry about recoil, costs are very low even with quality match ammo, lots of trigger time, really watching conditions cause any change will throw you around.

Pity we overlook the basics.

Jerry
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I find my 22lr matcch rifles fantastic for training with for reading wind at 200 yards.
Plus, they are a whole bunch of "YAHOO!":D
You are right NMystic, we overlook the obvious sometimes...
cat
 
My suggestion for a new shooter who wants a rifle to grow with would still be the Rem 700, probably in 308.
The advice of getting a "good" 22 is the best I can think of, when I had time and was still offering marksmanship classes, we used the 22s to teach all the required skills to LR shooters. Then moved them up to centerfire.
The 308 is relatively effactive for most tasks, yet still fairly inexpensive to shoot.
Spending the extra few $$ having the 700 bedded and the trigger reworked would be a smart thing to do from the beginning. To try and get over flinch, poor breathing and other accuracy related issues after they are 2nd nature is difficult, much more so than not learning them from day 1.
Optics and mounts can be upgraded as skill increases.

An out of the box 300 is a WHOLE different critter to LRCs custom 300. For a new or beginner shooter to get beat up shooting a poorly fit, light and non recoil suppressed 300 is courting disaster. LRCs rig is something anyone could shoot and shoot extremely well, but it was pricey. For a beginner who really has long range intents, a rig along this line will make LR progress much easier, to be sure.
To spend 10K or more on a starter rifle may be a bit of a stretch for most, mostly because shooting experience defines the shooters wants and tastes.

The Savages though great rifles do not offer the vast opportunities for aftermarket goodies that the 700s do, and for that reason I would lean to the Remington. Resale is also a factor to consider, you can get out of a 700 instantly, some others you take a beating on when its sale time.
 
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civilian84 said:
Very informative information you guys are giving, thanks it is much appreciated.
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With the long range guys you've had chime in here, you've probably had about the best advice gunnutz.com has to offer. I personally doubt you will receive much more 'new' information, this post is destined to be rehashed over and over, but up til this point represents just about most of the things that can be conveyed on the internet, in my opinion. After this, it's just a bunch of what's best and arguing ;)
 
How does this look as a starter for long rnage shooting?

Very nice, barely used CZ 452-2E ZKM .22 rifle. Satin nickel finish with synthetic stock. 2 factory mags, 3-9 adjustable objective Bushnell target scope. $525
 
Spray said:
How does this look as a starter for long rnage shooting?

Very nice, barely used CZ 452-2E ZKM .22 rifle. Satin nickel finish with synthetic stock. 2 factory mags, 3-9 adjustable objective Bushnell target scope. $525
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The thing you will notice right off the bat is that you cannot hit the target with that rig unless you hold WAY OVER at 200 yards!!:D
What most of the guys do is crank the scope as high as the can , then
use a big piece of newsprint , with the aiming point at the top of the target frame.
This will let the bullet strikes be seen at the bottom of the newsprint.
The scopes I use for this are RTB ( return to battery) with external adjustments, so they have no problem going that high.

It is very easy to do, all you need is a target frame of about 4' high, and make sure the news print covers the whole height.
I like to use a 10m air rifle tsarget for an aiming point , but I sometimes use a 22 bullet hole also.
You will notice right away just how much the wind blows those little 22LR bulets arounf=d at 200, but you will aslo get pretty god at being abloe to adjust for it.
Have fun!!:)

Cat
 
Ardent said:
Sounds interesting, does it have a brake? I imagine it weighs a wee bit too. Sounds like a neat rig, nice part about the big .30's is you can actually use the higher BC bullets as they have the horsepower to launch them. I've never built a big .30, but my only experience with a .300WM comes from a Rem Mountain Rifle, and that gun is what I based my remarks on. I gotta concede that's not a great place to base a stereotype.
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Yep it has a break,weight, and everything you could want Rick created a work of art on this one, and as all of us agree not a beginner caliber or rifle, but I think you would definately love some time on the trigger of this one Ardent, Wish I could make summerland, maybe doable yet. I have a bunch of pictures of it posted already I'm sure you will find them, I need some new one's.:) ;)
 
I will have to agree with Mystic player and Catnthehatt. I bought a Brno #4 and am getting a weaver T24 for long range practice. I have found that the 22lr at close to 200 yards has the same wind values as my 308 at 1000. And if you decided to change calibers to a 6mm br 6.5/284 or a 300 win mag all you need to do is compare the wind values for the new calibre and set up you target accordingly. all three would be closer then 200 yards.
The best part is that even with top drawer 22 ammo Eley Tenex or Lapua Midas it would still be cheaper to shoot 22 lr then the centrefire rifle and you wouldn't burn up your barrel.

If you do go to the 22 route make sure you have a scope that has enough elevation to get out to 200 yrds and/or buy the Burris Zee series rings with inserts.
 
Long Range Canuck said:
Yep it has a break,weight, and everything you could want Rick created a work of art on this one, and as all of us agree not a beginner caliber or rifle, but I think you would definately love some time on the trigger of this one Ardent, Wish I could make summerland, maybe doable yet. I have a bunch of pictures of it posted already I'm sure you will find them, I need some new one's.:) ;)
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Sounds like a beautiful rig, you guys in the oilpatch have all the toys... :cool: I'd love to see it in person, hope we can meet up for a shoot at some time. I've got a new rig in the works as well in 7mm that's going to be a dandy... You ever plan on scoping that M14S with a Smith or ARMS mount? Or are you sticking with irons? :) Kinda miss that M14S... :p Just bought a complete TRW parts set though, everything but the receiver, so I'll have a new one built on a Norc receiver soon enough :) Might even scope this one.

Spray said:
^^ Does the scope i mentioned on the .22 good for 200 yards?
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The model isn't mentioned in your post, but seeing as it's AO it will likely be OK. I don't own any bushnells anymore, switched to Leupold (and also switching to S&B) and never looked back... I even thought my Tasco was good years ago, just don't try good glass or nothing will compare in the future... :p
 
Since you asked what I shoot.... LOL!

I shoot a Mossberg Chuckster in 22 mag at ranges to 200 yards. Its a little more expensive in ammo than the 22LR but I really like it since I can adjust the scope in that range and still be on target (using the mildots). Its got an Elite 3200 10x40 mounted. My best groups are under 3/4" at 100 yards. But considerably larger (ballpark 3-4" at 200 yards).

I'm working on getting a Rem 600 in 5.56 with 1/8 twist up and running as my long range rig.
 
Ardent said:
Sounds like a beautiful rig, you guys in the oilpatch have all the toys... :cool: I'd love to see it in person, hope we can meet up for a shoot at some time. I've got a new rig in the works as well in 7mm that's going to be a dandy... You ever plan on scoping that M14S with a Smith or ARMS mount? Or are you sticking with irons? :) Kinda miss that M14S... :p Just bought a complete TRW parts set though, everything but the receiver, so I'll have a new one built on a Norc receiver soon enough :) Might even scope this one
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Ardent you did a sweet job on the M-14 I am thinking of an ARMS mount for quick release for a competition I am thinking about going to this year, Has an Iron sight catagory and scope catagory on moving targets out to 300yrds...Cathehat can tell you more on it he put the bug in my ear and the M-14 would be the perfect rifle for it. I have heard the Smith is a great mount also. I will probably go with the Bushnell 10X with Mildot but I do love my Leupy Mark 4 with TMR so may go with a fixed 10X leupy with TMR rectical. Need to find a Sage EBR stock for it also. Lots of plans, got to aquire cash!!;)
 
Long Range Canuck said:
Ardent you did a sweet job on the M-14 I am thinking of an ARMS mount for quick release for a competition I am thinking about going to this year, Has an Iron sight catagory and scope catagory on moving targets out to 300yrds...Cathehat can tell you more on it he put the bug in my ear and the M-14 would be the perfect rifle for it. I have heard the Smith is a great mount also. I will probably go with the Bushnell 10X with Mildot but I do love my Leupy Mark 4 with TMR so may go with a fixed 10X leupy with TMR rectical. Need to find a Sage EBR stock for it also. Lots of plans, got to aquire cash!!;)
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Did we mention we are ARMS dealers now?
And your t-shirt is in the mail, had a special pink 1 made just for you
 
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