I have a real collection of bullets that I have dug out of game over the past 45+ years. Most of the recovered bullets are conventional cup/core bullets. I have a separate collection of Premiums I have recovered. [FWIW, I have recovered only 25% of the Nosler Partitions that I have shot game with, the others have been passthroughs.] It is no secret that I am a big Partition user, and have been for a long while. It is the bullet that I judge all other by. That being said, Jason makes a valid point as far as conventional bullets go. On smaller, non-dangerous game, they actually often kill as quickly (in some cases more quickly) than do the premiums. Placement is, of course very important. If you are going to take angled shots that may need to break heavy bone to reach vitals, then the premium has the edge. This is why I use Partitions. I know that if a Moose is standing quartering towards me, I can drive that partition through the shoulder bones and ribs into the heart lung area witout a doubt. A lighter constructed bullet may not breed such confidence. Just a short note on H4831's comment regarding that CIL Copper Point Expanding bullet: I had at least two of those pencil through deer with no evidence of any expansion at all. These animals required more shooting to put down. In all fairness, they may have worked well on bigger game like moose, but I did not get the chance to try them on moose. In my opinion (with no disrespect to H4831), they were never in the same class with the Partition. Regards, Eagleye.
A reflection about Bullet performance
- Thread starter JasonYuke
- Start date
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Jack O' loaded lots of Hornady & Nosler Partitions in his day, and a few Speer as well.
I have been reloading for a little more than 40 years ... count me as a Partition fan.
Of the guys in camp, those who use factory stuff all seem to favour Remington
Core-Lokt or Bronze Points. No "failures" that I can recall over the last 10 years or so.
I have been reloading for a little more than 40 years ... count me as a Partition fan.
Of the guys in camp, those who use factory stuff all seem to favour Remington
Core-Lokt or Bronze Points. No "failures" that I can recall over the last 10 years or so.
Eagleye, I sure wouldn't doubt that could happen with deer, because they held their weight and penetrated. I can't even remember if I shot deer with them or not, but I most likely did.
When I mentioned the fellow that had shot so many grizzly bear, I meant Jack Boudreau, who used to live at Penny. In his book he states all he ever used was the 30-06 and always used 180 grain factory loaded Copper Point expanding.
That was his preference in bullets, so I put a lot of weight in that evidence.
When I mentioned the fellow that had shot so many grizzly bear, I meant Jack Boudreau, who used to live at Penny. In his book he states all he ever used was the 30-06 and always used 180 grain factory loaded Copper Point expanding.
That was his preference in bullets, so I put a lot of weight in that evidence.
blacksmithden
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Oh man, is this thread ever refreshing. Thanks for starting it Jason. I'd be willing to be there have been more large game animals taken with the 30-30 Winchester than any other cartrige ever made...and using the same old 150/170 grain soft tip flat points that Canadian Tire has been selling since Chester was a pup. I've been reading on here over the past few years, things like "is a 338 win mag big enough for moose???" For God sake kids. What the heck did the really old boys do when they only had black powder and round balls to work with ???? Thanks again Jason.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
I have yet to try the 180gr Sierra in a 303Br. But if I emptied my supply of ammo on hand using that bullet, into a Deer @ 30 yds until I was out of shells and it walked away, I'd be able to understand your reluctance to ever use it again. Using the Sierra Game King in a 30-06, 308 Norma Mag and the 338 Win Mag, my experience has been quite the opposite. In these calibers and used on Deer, Black Bear and Moose, I don't recall ever putting more than two into the chest area and I don't remember any going more than a few yards before dropping. The accuracy and speed in dropping game, I've never found that bullet lacking.
On a 'less than perfect' shot with the Game King compared to a very similar shot placement with a TTSX in a similar caliber, it 'appeared' there was considerably more blood shot meat where the Game King was concerned. And, no significant difference in the speed either of the Deer last year in AB was dispatched in. While stopping the animal as quickly as possible is a primary objective, and as I hunt primarily for the meat, minimizing meat loss is also very important to me. If, in using Barnes, I can accomplishment that with comparable accuracy and knock down ability, I may switch more calibers to Barnes, for big game use.
Yeah, that's what they tell me about Sierra's in general, but those .311 180's I had sure didn't work worth a hoot. That 15 minutes watching that deer die was one of my lowest feeling moments of my hunting career. I should have had more ammo on hand, to be honest, but I was the "backup hunter" that day anyway (The Wife(tm) was supposed to be the shooter, but she was off exploring farther down the mountain when I ran across the buck, and I did have a tag of my own, soo....), but who knew that pounding a deer several times through the chest wasn't gonna be enough to put him down in short order?
I will say one thing for those bullets though, man oh man, were they ever accurate! They'd go 3 bullets touching at 100 meters, very consistently out of my old scoped 2 groove. That's how I came to switch to them in the first place.
There will always be a storry that can be unexplained, but I can only base on my findings, my kills, and huntng experience. Which follows.
First off, I have never seen an animal walk away when hit like nothing had happened with any bullet. Have seen them stop than fall over after a few hundred feet, but most crash down , summer salt, nose dive, what ever. I like the ones that fall on the ground dead before the gun is finished jumping.
My thinking (I maybe wrong) but it works for me
A soft bullet speer, nosler, hornady , core lock, was designed to open on light skinned to med skinned animals I put blk-Bear, deers, and moose into this catagory. Weight retention in a bullet transfers energy causing trauma and creating a wound channel 2 things happen at once and blood loss will get you everytime.
The larger the wound channel, along with penetration, the more dramatic the effects will be I really do believe a bullet transfers energy to the animal better though a bigger hole, I am no expert but have seem some pretty dramatick bang flops with soft bullets.
I would argue with anyone on this forum, that a soft bullet would cause less trauma to a shoulder than a TSX or not just break it, it may break both and exit as well.
A TSX or Bonded bullet was designed to retain most 95% of its weight while controling the size of the wound channel, not a bad thing to have I agree. However a poor shot a bit far back can show a pencil effect if you do not hit anything to open that bullet up.My basic thinking for me alone a poor shot may cause a small hole, simple but I do not know..I have never seen it.
So the debate in question is do you wish to break bone or end for end the animal, or blow a softball hole through it... Both Kill...if you put your shot where it needs to go.
My point on loking at some of my past experiences is, a Big hole though the lungs, or chest, may not be a bad thing, and has not been from my experience. The corelocks, the interlocks will do this.
And the biggest point I wanted to stress,,, were the old bullets the Nosler Partitions, the Hdy sps, core locks, Were they really that bad... and are the new ones really this good...
First off, I have never seen an animal walk away when hit like nothing had happened with any bullet. Have seen them stop than fall over after a few hundred feet, but most crash down , summer salt, nose dive, what ever. I like the ones that fall on the ground dead before the gun is finished jumping.
My thinking (I maybe wrong) but it works for me
A soft bullet speer, nosler, hornady , core lock, was designed to open on light skinned to med skinned animals I put blk-Bear, deers, and moose into this catagory. Weight retention in a bullet transfers energy causing trauma and creating a wound channel 2 things happen at once and blood loss will get you everytime.
The larger the wound channel, along with penetration, the more dramatic the effects will be I really do believe a bullet transfers energy to the animal better though a bigger hole, I am no expert but have seem some pretty dramatick bang flops with soft bullets.
I would argue with anyone on this forum, that a soft bullet would cause less trauma to a shoulder than a TSX or not just break it, it may break both and exit as well.
A TSX or Bonded bullet was designed to retain most 95% of its weight while controling the size of the wound channel, not a bad thing to have I agree. However a poor shot a bit far back can show a pencil effect if you do not hit anything to open that bullet up.My basic thinking for me alone a poor shot may cause a small hole, simple but I do not know..I have never seen it.
So the debate in question is do you wish to break bone or end for end the animal, or blow a softball hole through it... Both Kill...if you put your shot where it needs to go.
My point on loking at some of my past experiences is, a Big hole though the lungs, or chest, may not be a bad thing, and has not been from my experience. The corelocks, the interlocks will do this.
And the biggest point I wanted to stress,,, were the old bullets the Nosler Partitions, the Hdy sps, core locks, Were they really that bad... and are the new ones really this good...
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I've never had a TSX create a "pencil effect"
TSX bullets open up rapidly. If you are having a problem putting an animal down with a "too far back" hit, I'd suggest you shoot a little further forward- Like behind the shoulder.
Blowing up the guts with a cup and core bullet or a premium is still blowing up the guts.
You don't need to hit bone to have a TSX open up, either.
TSX bullets open up rapidly. If you are having a problem putting an animal down with a "too far back" hit, I'd suggest you shoot a little further forward- Like behind the shoulder.
Blowing up the guts with a cup and core bullet or a premium is still blowing up the guts.
You don't need to hit bone to have a TSX open up, either.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
A while back, I picked up a pair of Jungle Carbines from an old shooting buddy. He wanted to get rid of them and offered them to me for a 'deal'
I couldn't pass up, besides, it was something 'new' to play with. After stating I had never tried that specific bullet, especially on game, a mutual friend was reading this thread and just gave me a box
., Sierra 303 Cal.
(2310),
.311 Daimeter,
180gr Spitzer.
Guess I may have to try them out, in addition to some recently acquired Hornady 174gr and some 215gr Woodleigh.
I've never had a TSX create a "pencil effect"
TSX bullets open up rapidly. If you are having a problem putting an animal down with a "too far back" hit, I'd suggest you shoot a little further forward- Like behind the shoulder.
Blowing up the guts with a cup and core bullet or a premium is still blowing up the guts.
You don't need to hit bone to have a TSX open up, either.
Gatehouse, I have never had a problem with a TSX bullet either...They work great I am not knocking them, had a bang flop a few years back on a nice buck,, and think they are the perfect projectile for some of the big (fast) magnums, such as the 30-378 and 7mm Rums or 7 STW. And hell I would say any cartridge for that matter, specialy if hunting dangerous game. You get penetration and thats a fact. A simple wet news paper trap will show you this, they will out penetrat anything on the market.
My point is, I never had a problem in all the years hunting with a well placed SP either. I have seen the Sps do the same thing on game in a different way. I know you have done testing, on these, and as have I,
- Location
- In the middle of gopher country
First off, I do not hunt game animals any more.
In the late 60's my game rifle was a Husky 243. The load was 100gn CIL soft point with H4831. After a few dozen deer and the odd elk have fallen to the concoction above. I have never lost one.
Shot placement is paramount.
In the late 60's my game rifle was a Husky 243. The load was 100gn CIL soft point with H4831. After a few dozen deer and the odd elk have fallen to the concoction above. I have never lost one.
Shot placement is paramount.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Agreed, that's a given and I don't believe it has been a point in question.
Of course a well placed standard soft point will kill well. What I like about the premiums is that they open up a whole bunch more options for what a "well placed" shot is.
And since they are really so little extra cost (as I demonstrated) I'd rather have the extra insurance.
Very interesting thread, and a lot of good points. I have shot most of my deer with Hornady Interlock Spire Points, although a few Speer Hot Core have crept in. No Nosler partitions. In my experience:
- .308 Winchester with Hornady 150 grain SP completely penetrated large deer on side shot.
- .257 Roberts with 120 or 100 grain Hornady completely penetrated deer.
- .270 Winchester with 130 grain Hornady completed penetrated deer.
Based on my experience, I don't see a lot of need for any thing extra that I might get from a premium bullet. Admittedly, all of the above are 'standard' velocity calibres, but still good results and good penetration.
- .308 Winchester with Hornady 150 grain SP completely penetrated large deer on side shot.
- .257 Roberts with 120 or 100 grain Hornady completely penetrated deer.
- .270 Winchester with 130 grain Hornady completed penetrated deer.
Based on my experience, I don't see a lot of need for any thing extra that I might get from a premium bullet. Admittedly, all of the above are 'standard' velocity calibres, but still good results and good penetration.
There are many ways to get form A to B
If you are hunting deer with anything more than about a .243 or 30-30, you really don't need premium bullets unless you want to take TH shots or you are shooting something very fast and are wrecking alot of meat.
If you are hunting larger animals like moose, you don't need a premium if you are using cartridges in the 7x57 and up class, with heavyish bullets, and take mostly broadside shots.
If you want to use a 'smaller" cartridge than "normal" or you want to use a lighter, faster bullet, using a premium is very good insurance.
If you want to take any shot at the vitals you can, you pretty much need a premium that will hold together and penetrate.
If you want to flatten your trajectory a bit and not have to think about holdover until after 350 yards, but still retain plenty of killing power, a lighter premium is the answer.
If you often hunt where you may encounter different species, a premium will work on the smaller and the larger equally well.
Big heavy bullets at moderate velocity (like the 215 gr bullets in the .303) kill the hell out of game and penetrate very well. The downside is the trajectory isn't great. Premiums offer a better trajectory with the same capabilities.
In the rare event of a grizzly wanting to eat you, a premium that travels end to end on Mr Grizz is a handy thing to have.
In short, I think premiums open up more options, and with thier minimal extra cost per hunting season, they are cheap insurance, too!
If you are hunting deer with anything more than about a .243 or 30-30, you really don't need premium bullets unless you want to take TH shots or you are shooting something very fast and are wrecking alot of meat.
If you are hunting larger animals like moose, you don't need a premium if you are using cartridges in the 7x57 and up class, with heavyish bullets, and take mostly broadside shots.
If you want to use a 'smaller" cartridge than "normal" or you want to use a lighter, faster bullet, using a premium is very good insurance.
If you want to take any shot at the vitals you can, you pretty much need a premium that will hold together and penetrate.
If you want to flatten your trajectory a bit and not have to think about holdover until after 350 yards, but still retain plenty of killing power, a lighter premium is the answer.
If you often hunt where you may encounter different species, a premium will work on the smaller and the larger equally well.
Big heavy bullets at moderate velocity (like the 215 gr bullets in the .303) kill the hell out of game and penetrate very well. The downside is the trajectory isn't great. Premiums offer a better trajectory with the same capabilities.
In the rare event of a grizzly wanting to eat you, a premium that travels end to end on Mr Grizz is a handy thing to have.
In short, I think premiums open up more options, and with thier minimal extra cost per hunting season, they are cheap insurance, too!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I've never had a TSX create a "pencil effect"
TSX bullets open up rapidly. If you are having a problem putting an animal down with a "too far back" hit, I'd suggest you shoot a little further forward- Like behind the shoulder.
Blowing up the guts with a cup and core bullet or a premium is still blowing up the guts.
You don't need to hit bone to have a TSX open up, either.
The TSX is the bullet I love to hate but they work, so I keep buying them. My nephew recently killed a spike mule deer in the Okanagan with a single 130 gr TSX's I loaded for him at 2600 from his .30/06. The kid is a light weight 14 year old, so loading the '06 to manageable levels was important, when I loaded that ammo he was a light weight 13 year old. The deer was taken at close range, about 100 yards with a broadside lung shot and that was the end of the story. I chose the TSX over other light weights because I knew it would open up fully, even with a low impact velocity if the shot was a long one, and it would hold together if he got a shot at a larger animal up close. I could of chosen a mid-weight cup and lead core bullet but the velocity would have to be much lower to keep within the .30/30 recoil limits I was after, while the higher velocity provided him with the confidence to take a longish shot if he was handed that opportunity.
The thing about the TSX is that the hollow points are nearly all the same depth within caliber regardless of bullet weight, the weight is determined by the length of the shank, thus you do not get greater upset by choosing a heavier bullet as is the case with many lead core bullets. The heavy bullet does not produce a greater wound volume within caliber because when loaded to equal pressure the lighter bullet will be faster and the higher impact velocity of the lighter bullet equals the heavier bullet's ability to penetrate with less velocity. I like heavy for caliber bullets, but the way the TSX is designed, a heavy bullet has no advantage . . . so I love to hate em. But I still load 180 gr TSXs for my wife's .30/06 bear gun and not 150s, old beliefs are hard to change.
In short, I think premiums open up more options, and with thier minimal extra cost per hunting season, they are cheap insurance, too!
While I agree with most of your arguement, most hunters don't use 368 cal magnum bazoka's for hunting. The average guy with an average gun will kill the average thin skinned game up to & including moose very nicely with standard bullets, I have always & will always say that. If I was in Grizzly or Polar bear country I'd be using premiums to.
minimal extra cost ??????
By your own calculations you consider 50 bullets for $50 or --> 100 for $100 minimum extra cost over 100 Cor'locks for $30
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
minimal extra cost ??????
By your own calculations you consider 50 bullets for $50 or --> 100 for $100 minimum extra cost over 100 Cor'locks for $30
When you compare the price of say the TTSX to a more traditional type hunting bullet, yes, they are somewhat pricey. However, when you factor that additional cost of a few bullets into the total or all the other costs of what you spend on equipment and hunting trips, the cost is minimal.
I have no real complaints on the more traditional style of hunting bullet as they've served me well for many years. As I've mentioned previously, my primary reason to changing over to TTSX in a few calibers is primarily because of the apparent difference in the amount of blood shot meat.
]
The average guy with the average gun will benefit quite a bit from premium bullets, if he wants to flatten trajectory, lessen recoil, open up more shot options, etc. If he wants to use a medium heavy bullet and shot the moose broadside, then standard bullets will work fine.
Sure it's minimal cost, in terms of a hunting season. As I said, if I was to use 50 rounds of ammunition per season (I don't, but lets say I do) the cost of using TSX bullets is $50 +powder/primer. Cost of Core-Lokts is $15 + powder/primer. $35 spread over a whole season is pretty minimal.
If you are like most guys and shoot about half that per season (25 rounds) the cost per season is only an additional $17.50
Maybe $35 or $17.50 over a hunting season just doesn't seem that much to me.
The average guy with the average gun will benefit quite a bit from premium bullets, if he wants to flatten trajectory, lessen recoil, open up more shot options, etc. If he wants to use a medium heavy bullet and shot the moose broadside, then standard bullets will work fine.
minimal extra cost ??????
By your own calculations you consider 50 bullets for $50 or --> 100 for $100 minimum extra cost over 100 Cor'locks for $30
Sure it's minimal cost, in terms of a hunting season. As I said, if I was to use 50 rounds of ammunition per season (I don't, but lets say I do) the cost of using TSX bullets is $50 +powder/primer. Cost of Core-Lokts is $15 + powder/primer. $35 spread over a whole season is pretty minimal.
If you are like most guys and shoot about half that per season (25 rounds) the cost per season is only an additional $17.50
Maybe $35 or $17.50 over a hunting season just doesn't seem that much to me.
