A superb early WWII M97 Winchester Trench Gun.

[drm3m]

(For they that have an interest in these guns)

Price realized on RIA for an early Winchester M97 Trench Gun $8,625 including buyers premium and other fees? ( Sept 2011)

Comment from Bruce Canfield.

While it's probably the "top of the market" at this time, I can't say I'm terribly surprised that a near pristine WWII M97 trench gun would bring over $8K. A WWI trench gun this condition would likely bring even more. The really primo examples are bringing top dollar and I don't see that trend changing. Original military shotguns have been undervalued for many years but that is obviously changing. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in more and more fakes being made.


David

Description;

Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun manufactured in 1942. This take-down M1897 Trench Gun has the scarce and very desirable early WWII production features that include: (1) WWI style, six-hole hand guard/bayonet mount, (2) early pattern markings with "U.S." only on the left side of the receiver and (3) early Ordnance final inspection mark consisting of "W.B." in a rectangle above the small Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock. A small Ordnance 'Shell and Flame' inspection mark is stamped on the top of the barrel just ahead of the receiver. The shotgun has the Winchester commercial blue finish on the hand guard, barrel, magazine and receiver. The walnut stock and forearm have a dull varnish finish. The stock is fitted with a black, checkered, hard rubber, buttplate embossed with the round Winchester trademark and a sling swivel. The hand guard is fitted with the correct wire sling swivel above the bayonet lug. The underside of the barrel is stamped with the "42" (1942) production date. The left side of the barrel is stamped with the two-line legend: "MODEL-97-WINCHESTER-12 GA./-TRADE MARK-". "23/4 CHAMB./CYL." is stamped on the left side of the barrel between the Winchester legend and the receiver. The oval "WP" monogram/proof mark is stamped on the top of the barrel and the receiver. The serial number: "937039" is stamped on the underside of the barrel and "E/937039" is stamped on the underside of the receiver. The hand guard/bayonet lug is, correctly, not marked.


Most WWII production Winchester M1897 Trench Guns were fitted with the later production, four-hole, hand guard/bayonet lug. These Trench Guns had the later style markings which consisted of "US" and the Ordnance "Shell and Flame' insignia on the left side of the receiver and "G.H.D" final inspection above the larger Ordnance Escutcheon on the left side of the stock.


Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns, like this one, with the early hand guard and markings are scarce and very desirable.Condition:Excellent. The Trench Gun retains 95% of the original blue finish. Wear is limited to light scratches and storage marks on the sides of the receiver and some minor cycling marks on the magazine tube. The stock is highly figured walnut and is in excellent condition. The Ordnance inspection marks are crisp. Wear is limited to a minor scratch on the left side of the pistol grip. The forearm is in excellent condition.

Winchester Model 1897 Trench Guns saw extensive use in the Pacific Theater during WWII and remained in service until well after the Vietnam Conflict. As a result, examples of M1897 Trench Guns in original condition are scarce; early production M1897 Trench Guns like this example are very difficult to find with any amount of original finish.

Click on this link to see this gun.

http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/53/lid/3186


Early W.B. stock cartouche.

Later G.H.D stock cartouche.

The later receiver Ordnance marking.

These two U.S. WWII Winchester M97 Trench Guns remain in Canada.

The bayonet.

 

[drm3m]

Typical markings on these M97s.

David

 

[Steve1987]

Hi David,

Another beauty and excellent photography. I really do love these trench guns, something I'd look to add to my collection at some point.

I seem to recall you bought many of the pieces in your outstanding collection many years ago, have you purchased any new milsurps recently? I really wish there was more stuff like this available. I'd love to hear stories of where you found them with these photo posts. Have you imported from the U.S. at any point?

Cheers,
-Steve

 

[drm3m]

Steve,

I am flattered that you are asking the question.

The last piece that I bought was this M97 Trench Gun. (December 20th 2011 in Ontario Canada)
Purchased from a private older collector.
I waited a number of years to purchase this gun.....patience and good luck are important.

The two guns that I bought from the U.S. are shown below.
June 24th 2001 at the Gettysburg Civil War Show. '60 Colt Army.

A Martially marked '51 Colt Navy purchased on December 5th 1990 from David Condon (dealer) in the U.S over the telephone-sight unseen.

The top cavalry saber came from North Carolina (from a dealer) January 12 2011, U.S. Model 1840 dated 1845,
Ames manufactured and very well marked.

1941 Portuguese Contract Mauser K98k rifle (all matching,except the bayonet) purchased on the spot at a local gun show. March 7 2004.

M1911A1 Colt rig -purchased from the vet's family. (1942 manufactured W.B. acceptance.)
Purchased March 27 2004.

1938 dated S/42 P.08 with two matching mags-purchased August 4 2004 at a small Eastern Ontario Gun Shop.

Artillery Luger 1917 dated, unit marked-December 13 2004. (From a private seller.)

MG42 -March 25 2005. (Purchased from a local dealer.)

November 25th 2006 -- (CA) MP44. Purchased from a private seller.

Early M1A1 carbine-12-42 barrel dated-I first saw this gun at a local gun show in Canada on January 23 2008.....This rarely happens with these M1A1 carbines.
I sent photos of the gun to Bruce Canfield to check it out before I made my deal and picked it up on February 9 2008.

A pretty mixed bag...purchased from different sources.
I don't have a shopping list any more...it depends what I trip over.
I am very careful what I purchase now....it has slowed down to a trickle.

David

 

[drm3m]

From Steve;

I'd love to hear stories of where you found them with these photo posts.

No.5 Enfield inherited from my Father....he bought it in the early 60s.

M1934 Mauser KM marked purchased quietly from a local dealer.
June 19 2007---matching Ostee Navy property markings on the mag and grip strap.

P.38 ac42 purchased from a small Ontario gun shop. August 2 2003.
I also purchased the 1938 P.08 S/42 Luger there.

1943 Femaru with two matching mags-purchased off a local dealer's web site.
April 26 2008.

Springfield M1 Garand purchased privately in Ottawa October 2 2005.

EMcF stock cartouche. SA/EMcF Col. Earl McFarland- Springfield Armory June 1942-October 1943

Thompson Model 1928A1-1942 Savage manufactured, purchased from a local dealer-April 2 2005.

Two CAs purchased privately in the 70s.

One CA purchased privately -July 19 2005.

In the past the source of this stuff has been a combination of private sellers and dealers.....most of these deals take place privately...rarely in the middle of a busy gun show.
I don't function very well under that kind of pressure unless I see something that I am very sure about.

David

 

[theholeinthedonut]

Very nice stuff David! I love these M97's, they're really hard to find!

 

[drm3m]

Thanks "theholeinthedonut".

I have no idea how many of these U.S. marked M97 Trench Guns exist in Canada.
I try to track whatever examples that I learn about.

This thread started with a superb example of an early WWII M97 Trench Gun that sold for huge dollars on RIA in the U.S.

There is no question that they are becoming more difficult to find in the U.S. in decent original condition ….and much more difficult to find in Canada…..in any condition.

David

P.S.

As Bruce Canfield said;

While it's probably the "top of the market" at this time, I can't say I'm terribly surprised that a near pristine WWII M97 trench gun would bring over $8K. A WWI trench gun in this condition would likely bring even more. The really primo examples are bringing top dollar and I don't see that trend changing. Original military shotguns have been undervalued for many years but that is obviously changing. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in more and more fakes being made.

Bruce writes the books on this stuff.

My M97 Trench Gun with bayonet attached which I am quite pleased with.

 

[EMEDiva]

WOW! Fabulous collection.

 

[revilo]

Great looking guns. I have a US marked takedown M97, with the later stamping. I believe it's one those which came out of Vietnam many years ago. They are attractive, functional firearms, and a literal blast to shoot. Fearsome with the bayonet attached!

 

[Garand]

Great looking collection. My 1947 Winchester M97 Trench gun doesn't look that pretty.

 

[drm3m]

This is not Milsurp WW1 or WWII but my collecting started with U.S. Civil War stuff and I still have a substantial interest in collecting nice pieces from this period.

If I continue adding pieces to my collection it will probably be from this period….if I can find them in Canada.
The U.S. market for nice pieces is a little too rich for me.

This ’58 Remington was one of my early pieces-July 8 1971…purchased privately in Canada.

'58 Starr CW revolver purchased from the same seller as the '58 Remington.

U.S M1841 Rifle-a.k.a. Mississippi Rifle-1848 lock dated –E. Whitney Contract.
Also shown is the saber bayonet for this rifle.
This is one of the few pieces I bought with instalment payments from a dealer friend.
Picked it up on May22 1995 after I finished paying for it.

U.S. M1842 musket-Harpers Ferry- lock dated 1843…very early date for these muskets.
First seen at a local gun show…purchased March 18 2006.
It was one of those meet me at McDonalds 150 miles from where I live…..I give you the cash and I leave with the gun.
The bayonet came later from the Baltimore show. (Almost half the cost of the musket.)

Various carbines purchased privately.....some involved trades for modern hunting rifles and handguns which were no longer of interest to me.
(Early 1990s.)

Collecting has been a moving target for me….from the U.S. Civil War to WWII machineguns.

David

 

[Semi12]

Wow just Beautifull, if you ever need a friend in calgary

 

[jfred]

Is it weird that these pictures gave me a chubby?

 

[fugawi]

Is that a Lanchester SMG I see? Have you fired it?

 

[drm3m]

fugawi,

It is a Lanchester which was converted to CA.
This particular gun was manufactured in 1942 by the Sterling Engineering Company.
It is in superb condition with original finish.
I fired it once years ago.
These smgs were built like a tank.
I can understand why the Brits went for the Sten.

The lanchester must have been expensive to manufacture, and it is a heavy gun. It had a 50 round magazine in 9mm.

David

Mags. (Sterling marked.)

LANCHESTER Mk.1 SMG*
Some background on the Lanchester Mk1 SMG.
(Much of this info is from Peter Laidler’s book The Guns of Dagenham.)

When Britain went to war in 1939, there were no sub-machineguns of any sort in her Order of Battle. In fact, the armories were bare. It was not until 1940 that the British Purchasing Commission in New York was instructed to buy all the Thompson sub-machineguns that it could lay its hands on. In all, orders were placed for 300,000 Thompson sub-machineguns and a staggering 249 million rounds of .45 cal. ammunition. (100,000 never ended up in Britain but rather at the bottom at the Atlantic Ocean,…casualties of the German U-Boats etc.)

Once the gold reserves were gone it was a case of necessity that Britain, in desperation, just had to manufacture her own sub-machinegun.
After evaluation and debate the decision to manufacture a gun that resembled the German MP28 (11) was made, …leading to the development of the British Lanchester MK.1 sub-machinegun.

The British MP28 copy was given the general designation of Lanchester after George Lanchester who was charged with producing the weapon at the Sterling Armament Company, the same company that went on to produce the Sterling submachine gun that is presently the standard submachine gun of many nations.

Cyclic Rate of Fire: 600 RPM
Type of Fire: selective: full automatic and semi-automatic.
(This particular gun is a later war Mk1* which was full auto only, it has since been converted to semi-auto.)
Magazine Capacity: 50 rounds.
Bayonet: The gun is fitted with a bayonet lug to accommodate the Pattern 1907 bayonet.

The first contract was June 13, 1941. (50,000 guns) at 14 Pounds Sterling each.
Last contract October 9, 1943.

The Four Lanchester Assemblers:
Lanchester assembly contracts were actually awarded to three firms:

Sterling (two plants) Total production until October 1943 – 74,579.
Sterling assembly of the Lanchester was split between the Sterling Engineering Co Ltd in Dagenham (code marked S109) and the Sterling Armaments Company in North Hampton (code M619)

W W Greener – production 16,990
Boss & Co. – production 3,990

Some early guns do not appear to be code marked at all except by serial number prefix of ‘S’, ‘A’, or ‘SA’.

Quantities Produced:
Sterling (two factories; codes S109 and M619): at least 74,579
Greener (code M94): 16,990.
Boss (code S156): 3,900

Production over 28 months averaged 3,410 per month.

According to contract records, Sterling was to have made guns serially numbered from 1 to 9999 then (S) A1 to about A64580.

Who got the Lanchesters?

50,000 Lanchesters: (nearly all for the Royal Navy.) First contract June 13, 1941.

The first order was supposed to be split 50-50 between the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, which did not happen.

By this time the British Army had supplies of the Thompson, and they made it quite clear that the Thompson was what they wanted, so the Army kept the Thompson.

The Royal Air Force would immediately receive the 2,000 newly acquired Smith & Wesson 9mm carbines (smgs), for the defense of aerodromes and airfields now springing up around the country. This gun apparently was a total fiasco.
(Ironically the RAF had originally requested a copy of the German MP38.)

The actual year of manufacture of any particular Lanchester can be found stamped in small almost indistinguishable numbers next to the “crossed flags” military proof mark on top of the rearmost magazine housing flange that encompasses the casting.

In the case of this gun the faint numbers indicate a 1942 manufacture date.

MARKINGS:

Sterling-made MK.1 Lanchester guns are marked on top of the magazine housing.

Lanchester
MK.1
SA.
‘S’ indicates Sterling manufacture and ‘A’ indicates serial number prefix.
12028 A (The serial number of this gun)
C.F. 39
(C.F unknown code followed by small numbers.)

 

[drm3m]

I believe that these photos show the German MP28 II......the gun that the British Lanchester smg was copied from.... shown in the Warsaw Ghetto.

David

The MP28II shown below is not a German WWII gun.
It belongs to a fellow collector from Brazil....I think this a contract manufactured gun.
Great condition and a super photo. It shows the different magazines.

 

[fugawi]

Thanks for posting David. I did not know much about it personally. Interesting to see that it seems to be such a close copy of the MP28 at least externally.

I'm rather surprised that during the time frame the Lanchester was produced that they were intended for the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force and not a priority for the Army irregardless of the Thompsons. I am aware that some infantry preferred the Thompson over the Sten but have read that units were ordered to exchange their Tommy guns for Stens prior to Normandy.

Reminds me of the Sterling SMG. You mentioned a 50 round mag. I'm presuming a stick magazine as shown. Is this correct or do you mean a 30 round mag as in the Sterling Patchett? If indeed a 50 rounder - how well did these feed?

Thanks again for the detailed post.

 

[drm3m]

fugawi

Here is an excerpt from Peter Laidler’s book "The Guns of Dagenham".

There were several drawbacks with the Lanchester. The first was that it was very expensive. The second was to plague its later and younger brothers, the Sten and Patchett: the magazines; and 50-round ones at that!

The 50-round Lanchester magazine was not a good idea. Once the magazine got anywhere close to being fully loaded, the base-plate would come away from the magazine case, due to the excess spring pressure.
The result was chaos, as the base-plate and spring flew one way and the rounds another.
Thoughtfully, each Lanchester was supplied with a much-needed magazine loading tool.

The Sten and Patchett magazines were only of 32-round capacity, but even 32 rounds were impossible to hand-load through the lips of a single-feed magazine!

David

Apparently the Air Force was never issued Lanchesters but elected to use the Smith & Wesson
weapon shown below. It was supposedly very unsuccessful.

 

[fugawi]

I used the Sterling SMG. I seem to recall the mag capacity as 30 rounds not 32 but could be mistaken - it was a long time ago.

We used to only load it to 28/29 rounds as to squeeze in those last few rounds by hand would end up ripping up your finger tips on the mag lips. Plus greater chance of misfeeds with full mags.

 

[albayo]

Beautiful examples of some rare firearms.
I have a set of new three mag pouches for the Lanchester, one has the pouch for the loading tool.
Will have to dig them out to check if they are Canadian marked.