A Winchester 1905 adapted to shoot 7.62x25?

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hayday

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I've been thinking for a while that the World would be a better place if a few now-boreless Winchester 1905 guns, made in the obsolete 32 WSL caliber were converted to fire the super-common and affordable 7.62x25 cartridges - maybe feeding from TT33 or Zastava M57 magazines.

I actually have all the tooling and facilities available to me to do the conversion - but no gun to convert.

Anybody else think that this might be an interesting project?

Anybody want to contribute a gun or otherwise get involved?
 
You really shouldn't run bottlenecks in a straight blowback. There is a very good reason that all blowback firearms use straight walled cases. However, you may well be able to get it to run .30 carbine or .357 magnum.
 
Blastattack said:
You really shouldn't run bottlenecks in a straight blowback. There is a very good reason that all blowback firearms use straight walled cases. However, you may well be able to get it to run .30 carbine or .357 magnum.
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Not so. The World is full of 7.62x25 blowback guns. The PPSh41 and PPs43 for starters. Used in no less than 3 major wars (WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Probably around 12 million+ of those made and nobody noticed that "you shouldn't run bottlenecks in a straight blowback", or that "all blowback firearms use straight walled cases".
 
fraserdw said:
X25 is 32 to 35k pressure
351 is 35 to 38k.
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We aren't comparing 7.62x25 to 351 WSL. We are comparing 7.62x25 to 32 WSL.

The 351 WSL wasn't even used in the Winchester 1905 (which is what we are referring to here). It was only chambered in the Winchester 1907. The Winchester 351 self loading cartridge has nothing whatsoever to do with this conversion.
 
Brutus said:
No sir, I meant the 7.62 Yugo Tok's had 9 shot magazines IIRC.
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The Serbian Zastava M57 has a 9 round magazine capacity. That's were I was going suggesting that it might be fun to convert a 1905 (formerly chambered in 32 WSL) to shoot "the super-common and affordable 7.62x25 cartridges - maybe feeding from TT33 or Zastava M57 magazines.". The re-chambering would be done by a full barrel and chamber reline - with the new liner reamed to 7.62X25
 
You might be OK with using those mags but they are different enough to be difficult to convert. I have converted a couple of beater 1905s to 30M1 Carbine and they still utilize the original mags and feed nicely.

I have been considering building one with 7.62x25 chambering but then I would have to make or purchase a reamer and I haven't built up the ambition to do so. So little time, so many fun projects.

I have seen 1907s with set back barrels and chambered to 9mm and recently one to 357 SIG.

These are nice actions albeit a bit cumbersome. I can see why the French bought so many of them. Sadly, because of almost unobtanium ammo they have been relegated to the dark area of many closets and safes. IMHO, they are fine for pressures up to 40,000 psi at most.
 
the mag will feed the 762x25 .There was the 35wsl in the 1905 which is the length of 38 special.I did reline a 1907 for a 30carbine project as I have more 1907s than 1905.
Contouring the barrel is the real chore when starting from a blank,done it twice once for 357 barrel on a 1910 and 338 -223 on a 1907 .

A 762x25 would be an interesting project but not for me
 
pmatuk said:
the mag will feed the 762x25 .There was the 35wsl in the 1905 which is the length of 38 special.I did reline a 1907 for a 30carbine project as I have more 1907s than 1905.
Contouring the barrel is the real chore when starting from a blank,done it twice once for 357 barrel on a 1910 and 338 -223 on a 1907 .

A 762x25 would be an interesting project but not for me
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As noted I wouldn't contour a barrel - I'd reline the existing one with a new .308 bore and a new 7.62x25 chamber. I have a 7.62x25 reamer already as well as access to a full machine shop. That's why I said I have all the tooling. I just need a gun to get going. Any volunteers?
 
bearhunter said:
You might be OK with using those mags but they are different enough to be difficult to convert. I have converted a couple of beater 1905s to 30M1 Carbine and they still utilize the original mags and feed nicely.

I have been considering building one with 7.62x25 chambering but then I would have to make or purchase a reamer and I haven't built up the ambition to do so. So little time, so many fun projects.

I have seen 1907s with set back barrels and chambered to 9mm and recently one to 357 SIG.

These are nice actions albeit a bit cumbersome. I can see why the French bought so many of them. Sadly, because of almost unobtanium ammo they have been relegated to the dark area of many closets and safes. IMHO, they are fine for pressures up to 40,000 psi at most.
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You wrote ..."they are different enough to be difficult to convert". BUT I wouldn't convert the 1905 magazines, I'd modify the gun to accept bone stock Zastava M57 magazines.

You'd have a legal 9 shot 1905 in a handy caliber - you can buy bucket loads of surplus ammo for $6 per 48 rounds. And you can get Zastava M57 magazines anywhere for 30 bucks each. What's not to love?

Those days where "the almost unobtanium ammo has caused these guns to be relegated to the dark area of many closets and safes" could be over baby.

images
 
wbaad said:
Interesting idea!
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For those not familiar with the gun, this is a Winchester 1905:

winchester1905-660x130.jpg


Imagine this with the stock magazine replaced by a 9 round 7.62x25 magazine from the Zastava M57 and shooting the uber affordable 7.62x25 pistol round (in a rifle an 86 grain bullet moving at about 1850 FPS).

762344042626-2.jpg


Could be fun
 
to run 357/360 through the 1910 I had to lighten the breech block a bit to get it to cycle as the bullets .Your going to use are 85 gr and the block was tuned for 170gr.Not hard to do just some trail and error ,or it might just work as is never know till you try it .
 
pmatuk said:
to run 357/360 through the 1910 I had to lighten the breech block a bit to get it to cycle as the bullets .Your going to use are 85 gr and the block was tuned for 170gr.Not hard to do just some trail and error ,or it might just work as is never know till you try it .
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I agree that it might be necessary to reduce the mass of breechblock (specifically the weight that projects forward into the fore-end) by a small amount. However the issue that would determine this isn't the ratio of bullet weights (170 gr. for 32 WSL versus 85 grains for 7.62x25) The issue is more specifically the relative kinetic energy of the two cartridges. It is the kinetic energy of the cartridge - upon firing - that accelerates the mass of the breachblock back.

32 SL sends a 165 grain bullet off at 1400 feeet per second - for an energy level of 760 foot pounds ("fpe"). Factory 7.62x25 ammo - like the Fiocchi stuff in the picture above - delivers an 86 grain bullet at up to 1700 fps - from a 4-5 inch barrel (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62%C3%9725mm_Tokarev). You can expect a 200+ fps increase in velocities out of a 20+" rifle barrel. 86 grains at 1,900 FPS adds up to 689 fpe.

You can calculate that yourself using the formula E = (M x V²) ÷ 450,435 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_energy). It looks to me like you'd have to lighten the weight in the fore-end by less than 10%.

IMO, taking 10% off the weight in the fore-end would improve the feel of the rifle; since these guns have a bit of unnatural feel the first time you pick one up - owing to the unexpectedly heavy weight and unnatural balance which comes from the hidden steel mass in the fore-end.

The caliber change would effectively make the gun nicer than the original design (flatter shooting and better balanced).

I'd love to do the conversion and I have to tooling and access to a machine shop to do it - but no gun. Anyone what to join in? For example does anyone want to contribute a gun to the cause? Otherwise, would someone like me to convert their gun for them - covering my direct costs only?
 
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