AB reg's on Copper Monolithics

[New Camper]

That description is very vague... I knew it existed. But does it also apply to HP copper mono's or just copper mono's was kind of the point.
So thanks for the input...but it's really nothing of use to the present discussion.

It is vague, and technically permits the use of any bullet because even though tiny, even the tightest FMJ will experience some expansion with weight shift/compression of the lead core forcing the jacket out near the waist.

Dangerous African game bullets are not usually expanding. And if "non-expanding" are just plain inadequate, I'm curious how man survived hunting with cast lead to arrive at the point where he can argue with a dumb bureaucrat over it? First and foremost is shot placement, but I wouldn't advocate the use of FMJ. Copper mono bullets are designed to expand. That regulation is useful as 99% of regulations... redundant unless the goal is for it to be used to persecute hunters. Applying the reasonable man test: mono bullets like the TTSX pass muster. In that recovered bullet, I would have expected higher retention weight than reported. It must have been a close shot through bone: a 300wm fires a 180gr near 3000fps: it did the job well it seems. The 9.3mm RN mono bullet might be a dangerous game bullet, non expanding. While .364" doesn't quite measure up to the pre-requisite .375" some places require, they are still an effective mainland Europe caliber intended for those dangerous species the Brits would have approached with the 375 H&H or larger. So the market is there for us here to be mindful of. Most HP bullets are target or rapid expanding for varmint sized animals... unsuited for big game. The fact that some contrary info is coming from F&G means there is unacceptable ignorance, hence my quip about persecuting hunters. Even though ignorance doesn't constitute malice, persecution results in that the accused must piss away time and resources to arrive back at the level he should never have been knocked from.

I like your signature line: I looked up who Red Adair was... oil rig firefighter. Gives valuable context to the quote, though generally speaking and without that context I tend to agree. I know a few engineers that are brilliant, but there are an abundance of cocky jackholes that screw things up and the real intelligent people in their wake work to fix things.

 

[Ardent]

PHs and guides generally not fans of solids or hard cast in my experience except for elephant, you need a marksman to make proper use of solids, many clients aren’t marksmen.

 

[dan belisle]

Not saying hard cast doesn't kill things, just that not sure they expand.
I have killed a pile of things with 55gr 223 full metal jacket, but they don't expand either.

Depends what you hit. Hit bone, and there will be expansion and deformation. But really, their forte is the sharp edge helping to bore a big hole on through. - dan

 

[MiG25]

Not saying hard cast doesn't kill things, just that not sure they expand.
I have killed a pile of things with 55gr 223 full metal jacket, but they don't expand either.

From what I saw back in the late 80's, I'd say the 223 FMJ that would be sold in plain 40 round boxes would fragment, they'd make a heck of a hole in a coyote, that is if you could hit it with the Mini 14.

 

[regulate34]

I was also curious about hard cast for hunting as it acts like a FMJ.
I did a bunch of digging. What I came up with is that most hard cast used for hunting is 35cal and larger.
They are also going a lot slower than a FMJ round.

But the biggest thing I found when reading was the wide flat nose of some cast are what deliver the energy.

A 45 cal FP cast is like hitting an animal with an already expanded 30cal.

I am interested to try them one day. Needs to be a wide FP. RN and SWC cast don’t hit the same from what I read.

 

[brybenn]

Wide meplate bullets have impacts that are visually more noticable. For instance my 2506 hitting deer they just fall where as my 50 cal muzzleloaders shooting large flat bullets hit a deer and you can see the ripple of impact and their entire body shakes. I've noticed the same comparing my 458wm vs 2506 on bear as well. The 2506 puts them down hard whereas the slower bullets may or may not have a runner. They don't go far though and they leave a great blood trail when they do

 

[trevj]

Wide meplate bullets have impacts that are visually more noticable. For instance my 2506 hitting deer they just fall where as my 50 cal muzzleloaders shooting large flat bullets hit a deer and you can see the ripple of impact and their entire body shakes. I've noticed the same comparing my 458wm vs 2506 on bear as well. The 2506 puts them down hard whereas the slower bullets may or may not have a runner. They don't go far though and they leave a great blood trail when they do

The other side of this, is that you can eat a steak that has a bullet hole through it, from the big, heavy, and slow bullet, but you may end up trimming off a mess of otherwise good meat that got bloodshot from the high speed arrival!

A friend of mine shot a doe at 25 yards, with a .300 Win Mag, loaded a bit warm, too. I figure he lost at least a quarter of the meat he should have took home, if he had either used a more appropriate round, or chose a better spot to hit her at 25+/- yards. As it was, the shoulder looked like a giant abscess and bruise.