NB.nagantsniper
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- northern nb
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accuracy problem cva kentucky 45 cal rifle
- Thread starter NB.nagantsniper
- Start date
Are you cleaning between shots? I also have a 45 cal flint rifle green mountain barrel T/C frame 75grs 3fff at 25 yards 85grs at 50 yards 454 ball 20th patch touch hole liner .93th a bit on the large side but have won many provincial matches with this combo hope this helps.
Are you using any lube on the patches when loading and maybe a thicker patch would help grab the rifling. I use a lube made from water,dish-soap and a rust inhibitor this was suggested by a long time shooter up at the range.
Your rifle may have started out as a kit with a percussion or flint lock,here are some pictures of the kit before building, mine has a Jukar barrel made in Spain:
[URL=http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/KentuckyRifleopenbox.jpg.html]
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Your rifle may have started out as a kit with a percussion or flint lock,here are some pictures of the kit before building, mine has a Jukar barrel made in Spain:
[URL=http://s989.photobucket.com/user/Skinny1950/media/KentuckyRifleopenbox.jpg.html]
NB.nagantsniper
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- northern nb
1 do not clean between shots we did try that and no real change in the problem.
2 we use bore butter, as a lube on patches mostly . and YES our rifle is same as your photo but it is percusion -cap. we bought it as found no idea if it was a kit gun or not .
2 we use bore butter, as a lube on patches mostly . and YES our rifle is same as your photo but it is percusion -cap. we bought it as found no idea if it was a kit gun or not .
Hook or tang breech? Is everything tight in the stock? I think it may be time to shoe polish the barrel and find the bearing points in the stock. Kit gun = Take your chances on the assembler's abilities.
I think something is moving to cause that much variation from shot to shot...sounds like an Enfield I once knew that had "the damned crack"
I think something is moving to cause that much variation from shot to shot...sounds like an Enfield I once knew that had "the damned crack"
Have you replaced the nipple with a new one. Nipple flash hole can cause problems with light loads.
Also a weak hammer spring can cause larger groups. Couple a weak hammer spring with a worn nipple and your groups can get big.
I have an inexpensive Jager in 45 caliber. It gave 6" groups at 50 yards with round ball and 50 grains of ffg. I replaced the nipple and tempered the mainspring properly and the same load dropped to less than 2".
Also a weak hammer spring can cause larger groups. Couple a weak hammer spring with a worn nipple and your groups can get big.
I have an inexpensive Jager in 45 caliber. It gave 6" groups at 50 yards with round ball and 50 grains of ffg. I replaced the nipple and tempered the mainspring properly and the same load dropped to less than 2".
I've had 2 Kentucky CVA's. Still have 1. Both deadly accurate, but finnicky about loads. With RB, mine both like 22 gr. fffG. Works great on small game out to 50 yds. For bigger critters, a 250 gr. maxi cast from a Lee mould, in pure lead, with 70 gr. fffG. Anything more than 70 gr. and accuracy would start to drop off. I don't remember what the max round ball load was/is.
You didn't mention your ball diameter or patch material and thickness so here are some ideas, based on my experiences with several 45 cal rifles. Try both .440 and .445 balls but start with .440 because that allows a thicker patch. Get some "8 oz." regular denim, which should compress in a micrometer caliper to .006" although the uncompressed thickness will be closer to .020". Try a more liquid patch lube to soften fouling: my Moose Milk concoction is 1 part Ballistol or water soluble cutting oil, with 1 part Pinesol, 1 part peroxide and 20 parts water. Many lubes are actually too thick and/or slippery and although I use Bore Butter for cold weather hunting, it allows too much fouling to build up in the barrel when firing multiple shots without cleaning the bore. Now try a couple more powder charges in 5 grain increments starting from your 40 grains and working up to about 70 grains (I use FFFg). Carefully shot 3-shot groups are adequate to show a trend here.
I recently did some work for a young friend on his el cheapo Spanish half-stock that appeared to have a good barrel but would not shoot better than about 4" for 5 shots at 25 yds for him. I used .440 balls with my lube and denim patches. With 40 gr at 50 yds the group was about 4". With 45 gr the group shrunk to about 2 ". With 50 gr I shot 5 into one ragged hole. That's the effect that is typically achievable with these guns, given decent sights and good shooting conditions. On my own 45 cal rifle, accuracy drops off after 70 gr so I shoot 45 gr FFFg for targets and 70 gr for hunting. On more than one occasion with 70 grains I have put a ball through deer at out to 100 yds so lots of power there.
I suspect your problems are firstly an inadequate patch material or thickness that can't cope with the fouling (you didn't mention whether your fired patches were inspected and holding together). Secondly, lube is too gooey to soften the fouling after the first shot through a clean barrel and finally, ball size may not be optimum. Good luck.
I recently did some work for a young friend on his el cheapo Spanish half-stock that appeared to have a good barrel but would not shoot better than about 4" for 5 shots at 25 yds for him. I used .440 balls with my lube and denim patches. With 40 gr at 50 yds the group was about 4". With 45 gr the group shrunk to about 2 ". With 50 gr I shot 5 into one ragged hole. That's the effect that is typically achievable with these guns, given decent sights and good shooting conditions. On my own 45 cal rifle, accuracy drops off after 70 gr so I shoot 45 gr FFFg for targets and 70 gr for hunting. On more than one occasion with 70 grains I have put a ball through deer at out to 100 yds so lots of power there.
I suspect your problems are firstly an inadequate patch material or thickness that can't cope with the fouling (you didn't mention whether your fired patches were inspected and holding together). Secondly, lube is too gooey to soften the fouling after the first shot through a clean barrel and finally, ball size may not be optimum. Good luck.
- Location
- vancouver island
Had a similar problem some while ago and finally found the front sight was slightly loose and floated back and forth about 10 thou when the piece was bumped as in loading. Just a thought. Cheers
Pure lead balls aren't used because the obturate the gap between barrel and ball - that is the purpose of the patch. The pure lead is soft enough to grip the patch and somewhat of the rifling lands so the ball follows the spin of the rifling.
But would a hard cast ball grip the patch enough? The reason I'm asking is that I've never used anything but pure lead in my smokepoles. I reserve harder alloys for bullet casting. It's just that I have had at least 5 CVA's in 45 - 2 Kentucky's, a squirrel rifle, a Kentucky pistol, and another pistol that I can't remember the model, and all were accurate enough to make head shots on grouse at 25 yds. with no issues whatsoever. The only time accuracy dropped off on any of them is when I tried heavy powder loads. My wife also has a CVA in-line that is super accurate, so I would have to suspect the load rather than the gun.
In over 50 years of shooting caplock muzzle loaders I have found that the load with just enough powder to get the ball to the target will be the most accurate. That is with a soft (pure) lead round ball and a lightly greased patch that is a "snug" fit in the bore. Recovered balls from these light loads will sometimes show the thread pattern of the patch material where the patch rides on the rifling. Recovered patches will tell you a great deal. The patch should be intact. no holes burnt (gas blowby?) and not cut by the rifling. If your patch material fails as you work up a load groups will get bigger.
The next thing that will increase group size is the diameter of the hole in the nipple - a new nipple can drop group sizes with heavier loads. Combine a worn nipple with a weak hammers spring and you will get erratic ignition and larger group sizes with heavier loads. A very weak hammer spring and a worn nipple will sometimes leave the hammer on half #### after you fire. I have dealt with a couple of spanish guns that had this problem. Proper tempering of the hammer spring and a new nipple brought group size down considerably.
Ahhh, words from the wise. That's pretty much what I have experienced, although I can't recall ever running into hammer spring issues or nipple problems (I tend to look after my nipples). But yes, in my case as well, accuracy tends to drop off as powder load increases. In the early days of shooting, I used to pour more and more powder down the tube, hoping to get that little bit of extra velocity. At one time, I think I used a measuring cup to measure loads for my 58 Buffalo Rifle (just kidding). Made for some fun pyrotechnics, but no hell in terms of accuracy. As I mentioned earlier, I found about 22 gr. of fffG best for round ball and small critters, and 70 gr. of fffG for bigger critters using maxi's. Critters never seemed to notice that i wasn't using a 396 Whizz-bang Magnum. They dropped dead just as quick, and it was a lot more fun to shoot.
I can't comment on the nipple/ mainspring effect, based on my experience but the lightest load that will stabilize the ball is almost always the most accurate with round balls. The biggest difference between round balls and lead slugs is the amount of surface bearing on the rifling. With a conical slug, all the parallel sides engage the rifling and a slug soft enough to expand at the base and obturate against the gas pressure but hard enough to resist stripping from the rifling is what we want and that is why a slug barrel can benefit from a faster rifling twist to stabilize the longer, harder-alloy bullets. With round balls, only the equator of the ball is available to engage the rifling, and that is only via having the soft lead engage the weave of the patch and to a lesser extent the lands so a slower rate of twist is required. Without a patch, a round ball will be deformed by pounding it into the muzzle to engage the rifling, as was done with many of the early Jager rifles prior to the emergence of the patch/undersize ball loading system, and accuracy will suffer accordingly. For me, one of the attractions of round-ball shooting is the high degree of accuracy that can be achieved with almost no recoil.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
just tempering a spring will do nothing as tempering draws out hardness in turn making the spring weaker. you would have to anneal(maybe even normalize) the spring then re harden said spring and then temper the temper is something you have to experiment with too hard and you risk breaking the spring too soft and you have a weak spring or one that just collapses altogether
ok, so you harden the spring by heating it chery red, then quench it in oil, then draw the temper by immersing it in a molten pure lead bath (620 degrees F) until it turns a deep blue, then you withdraw it from the molten lead and let it cool slowly between two bats of insulation. If it is spring steel this will give you the optimum spring pressure and the right hardness.
An inexpensive ebay temperature probe with a K type thermocouple can give you the exact temperature of your molten lead. Using Wheel weights will lower the point the lead goes into solidus. At 620 F the lead will go solid on the spring and then as the steel heats up will melt off. When the lead does not stick to the steal you are at roughly 620F . If you have the lead liquid and at a measured 620F you will get a good spring.
