Accuracy tips needed ... great plains flintlock.

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czscotia

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Finally got out with my flintlock .50 cal lyman great plains today
My group if you can call it a group! At 50 yds. Was about 6 inches or so with flyers
8 inches away from these.
I used 50 grains of fff and a tee shirt for patches.
The bore measures..520 within a couple thou as it is 5 groove and can't measure exactly
And tee shirt was about.015 to .020 thick so just about exact size of bore with .490 ball.

Any suggestions to get more reliable shot Placement?
 
Throw out the tee shirt and get some pillow ticking, thin denim or twill. 100% cotton. The thickness to ball size sounds about right.

What are you using for lube? Crisco, bore butter, spit, moose milk? I favour moose milk made with water soluble cutting oil, water and dish soap or Murphy oil soap. Sometimes wiper fluid instead of plain water. Lots of formulas out there.

Using a metal or synthetic range rod allows you to compress the load a fair bit and try to be consistent.
50gr of FFFG is a good place to start. If the rifling is 1 turn in 48 inches less powder might be better. If it's 1-66 or that ballpark then around 80gr might be more accurate.

How's the Lock time and ignition? Should be almost the same as a cap. I use a vent pick every time to be sure it's clear. Don't cover the hole with priming powder.
 
Just soaked the patches in vegetable oil. Seemed to work good the ball didn't get any harder to seat
For the 10 or 12 shots.
The ignition, when it worked well, was very quick, I was very surprised seemed almost instant
With just a slight delay.
Had a few flash in the pan and had to switch out the flint to get her going once, but overall worked good
 
I agree that T-shirt material is much too flimsy. Plus 1 for vagrantviking's advice regarding patch material. Did you recover fired patches and check them for damage? My 50 cal (1 in 66") prefers .495 balls and a charge of 80 grains of 3F. I have been loading with the same hickory rod for 30 + years.

If your T-shirt patches are saturated with vegetable oil, they are likely fouling the powder - which will most assuredly open up groups.
 
If the vegetable oil let's you fire a dozen shots without any changes in the feeling seating the ball it sounds like it's working fine.
Assuming it's not dripping wet and has the oil squeezed out it won't be contaminating the powder any more than anything else would. I'd maybe put in a small wad of dry fabric before the ball if it was going to be there all day hunting or something.

If you can find the fired patches see if they are getting cut or have holes. Shouldn't burn through if it's natural fiber but I've seen many new guns take a few hundred rounds to break in before they stop cutting the patches and groups will tighten up.

Are you shooting from a bench? Experienced using iron sights? (Met a few who've never used them). Is the set trigger working?
 
I dried the patches as much as I could befor use on a towel.
And I never thought to look for the patches after, unfortunately.
I was shooting off a bench and am not too too bad with iron sites
Actually the sights are easier for me as the rear is not so close
As on most other guns - They get a bit fuzzy!

I will certainly check out Dutch shoultz, thanks!

Do you get pillow ticking at the fabric Store?

Can you use a denim that is a bit thicker than the ideal .015?
Say if was .025 and softened up with lube can it be Used?
I have a fear of jamming the ball in the barrel!!
 
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vagrantviking said:
If the vegetable oil let's you fire a dozen shots without any changes in the feeling seating the ball it sounds like it's working fine.
Assuming it's not dripping wet and has the oil squeezed out it won't be contaminating the powder any more than anything else would. I'd maybe put in a small wad of dry fabric before the ball if it was going to be there all day hunting or something.

If you can find the fired patches see if they are getting cut or have holes. Shouldn't burn through if it's natural fiber but I've seen many new guns take a few hundred rounds to break in before they stop cutting the patches and groups will tighten up.

Are you shooting from a bench? Experienced using iron sights? (Met a few who've never used them). Is the set trigger working?
Click to expand...

x2 on checking the fired patches, that tells the story - lotta good material out there, including in T-shirts; what matters is the results. Generally speaking, 100% cotton and thick weave, a thickness that works with your ball & not burned through = winner. I've found many sources of good patch material, maybe the best being my daughters old dresses and my old dress pants. But a lot of sources in between those have worked great. Including some of my old golf T-shirts.
 
First problem is the T shirt because it is probably different thicknesses depending on the wear pattern. Also while I don't think that the lube would foul the powder any more than other lubes, I would go with the moose milk option and I would use moist patches and not dry them on a towel before loading. I would buy 100% cotton and use a micrometer to check the thickness of what you are buying. I am guessing something in the range of .015 to .020" when lightly compressed. The problem of buying pillow ticking is it does not necessarily come in only one thickness and for accuracy, you want consistency as well as not being too thick or too loose. In general the coarser the powder and the greasier the lube, the more fouling you will get. If you are hunting a greasy patch is important because it does not dry out but for targets and trail walks a water based lube is the way to go. The moose milk that I use is about 20% water soluable cutting oil, about 4 oz of isopropyl alcohol in the 1 liter container and a small amount of murphy's oil soap (because everyone else says they add it). The alcohol is to stop mold forming and I am pretty sure that the cutting oil is some form of vegetable oil because over time it will go moldy.

Dutch Schultz's method is intended for bench resting and cleaning after every shot and is not particularly suited to trail walks

cheers mooncoon
 
Buy some new 8 ounce cotton denim at a fabric store. Not the stretchy stuff as it has synthetic fibers.. wash it before using. Except when hunting when the ball might be seated for hours or even days I prefer a water based lubes as Mooncoon described. My Moosemilk recipe is 1 part Ballistol or water soluble oil, one part Pinesol or Lestoil, one part hydrogen peroxide and 20 parts water. Even on dry days you can go 20 or more shots between barrel wipes so ideal for bench work or trail walks.0
 
the water soluble oil in the moose milk I use hasn`t gone moldy in about 5 years. can`t remember the brand name off hand. I use Dutch`s dry lube patch method for bench shooting and hunting. if I do a trail walk, which is infrequent, I`ll use the moose milk on a dry lubed patch because most of my patch material is already dry lubed.
 
Are you properly following through on your shots? That is, ignoring that small explosion right in front of your face.

Check out www.muzzleloadingforum.com. Be aware, these boys are hardcore traditional, don’t even bring up inlines or scopes. Best forum I’ve come across. X2 to order a copy of Dutch’s system. He’s a great guy and has forgotten more than most people will ever learn. He can be found on the above forum as well (known as Dr5x). Send cash, postal money orders don’t work when he tries to cash them and for some reason Canadians can’t use a credit card. When corresponding use large font, capitals or even bold type. He's having the dickens of a time reading with very poor eyesight.
I think you’ll find these are excellent sources to get started and I recommend you check them out before getting too far into it. I started off with my own research and learning on my own and while it was hugely enjoyable, these will help with the learning curve. If you can find a Black Powder match, a number of people who can give you more information than possible through posts or e-mails. You can find them in the Alberta Black Powder Association newsletter.

As far as shooting supplies, I’ve yet to find a truly great online supplier in Canada. Hillfolks in Saskatchewan seems to be well regarded but last time I checked they weren’t online. I have purchased from https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Index.aspx and www.thegunworks.com and can recommend both. Rustywood in Mission seems to be a good supplier of powder, never shopped with them.

Like reloading cartridges, a lot of variables to play with. Patch thickness, lube, type of powder and amount and even ball size as is relates to patch thickness.

For a .50, .490 is the most common size ball but you can get .495 as well. Get into casting or find somebody who does, commercial balls are not highly regarded and I've had no luck with them.

Spit patches can work quite well. Grease lubes like Bore Butter seem to be an iffy thing but some people are happy using them. Consistent lubing of the patch is necessary which is why something like Dutch's dry-lube system work well. Pre-lubed commercial patches may or may not work for you. Pre-cut patches are convenient but if you go to strips of patch material and cut at the muzzle you don't need to worry about an off-center patch.

Try different types, granulations and amounts of powder until you get results that satisfy you. GOEX seems to be the most common in North America but there are a few different ones out. FOR A FLINTLOCK, ONLY USE REAL BLACK. Substitutes, even Pyrodex can lead to issues.

Blowing down the muzzle is a controversial subject. It helps any ember burn out out before throwing the next charge down. Safer method is to wipe with a spit patch and two dry patches which will also help remove fouling. I was also taught to wipe the bore after loading which makes no sense but again helps to minimize fouling build up. I've ended up wiping after every shot.

Have fun and make good smoke.
 
Thanks everyone!!
A lot to tinker with and learn!

I had taken my ar out with me when shooting the flint just in case it didnt work or it was not entertaining.
I shot it a bit but I gotta say
I had way more fun with Black powder.!!!
 
czscotia said:
I had way more fun with Black powder.!!!
Click to expand...

Welcome to the "Dark Side", where the giggles/grain factor is way higher than that heathen smokyless stuff and the $$$/giggle way lower. Take your time and get to know your particular gun, they are all subtly different, even same models from the same manufacturer. This is why historically they are named with female names, they each need a special kind of "stroking" to perform their best, just for you. But unlike women they are as loyal as a good dog.
 
No one seems to have mentioned trying different loads as well as different patches. You'll need to find the sweet spot for the amount of powder as well as the ball and patch fit to the bore.

Our GPR's have a powder chamber at the rear of the barrel. I ashamed to admit that the following seems obvious but I've not yet done this myself. What I'd suggest is that you/we first of all need to drop the ram rod into the bore and find the lip between this powder chamber and the main bore. Note the depth on the rod. Now add powder until the chamber is filled as noted by setting the ram rod down in the bore to rest on the charge. That way we're sure there isn't any air gap to alter the burn. Now pour out the charge and measure the volume so we know our minimum charge. Needless to say this needs to be done in a very meticulously dry barrel so the powder doesn't stick badly to the bore.

Now the fun starts. We need to find the patch that works with that size ball at this minimal charge. Locally there is a pretty good size group of BP shooters. I went into the local Fabricland asking about all cotton material with calipers in hand and the lady looked at me with a slight smile and squint to her eye and asked if I was one of "those gun shooting folks"... :d Seems most of the local BP folk had been down their way at various times over the years and I was only another in a long line.

Buy a yard each of sizes you think will fit. For a .490 this means something more like .015 to .018 in thickness and of a strong weave so it doesn't crush easily. I was shooting my own GPR recently with some left over .495 round ball using a .013 prelubed patch and that was a nice fit. So for a .490 you're going to be up closer to .018 or maybe even closer to .020.

One thing for sure you don't want to loose a fit. But too tight isn't good for the ramrod either. I feel it's about right where it requires a good hold on the rod and short sharp bumps to move the ball and patch down. And watch for the fouling stiffening up the ball and patch! On occasion I've had to resort to carefully hitting the ramrod against a tree to seat the ball. That's not a good thing ! ! ! ! But once started it has to be finished.

And as the others are saying T shirt material isn't all that great since it's woven in a way that makes it stretchy. And that means it crushes too easily. You want a more durable weave like the pillow ticking or light denim

After you try a few series at the lowest proper "no air gap" charge with different patch materials move up 5 grains and to it all over again. I like my series of shots to be 4 shots. But I'll go with just 3 if results are clearly poor. And if and when I actually take it all seriously enough to run such series on my GPR when the first three look good and tight then I'll shoot a couple more to be sure. Anyway with sets of 3 or maybe 4 shots for each patch and powder combo step up 5 grains at a time to up around 65 to 70 grains. Somewhere in there you should find a sweet spot that looks promising with good groups. At that point if you want to "gild the lily" vary the charge by a couple of grains each side of the best of the 5 grain step series.

Watch the patch size too. You need enough patch that it doesn't walk out from around the ball as it's driven home. But you don't want so much that it sticks out the end like a big flower. For a .50cal I find that around 1 1/4" square works well. Or do like some and cut or tear off strips that are around 1 1/2" wide and start the ball so it's just down below flush and using a patch knife cut off the fabric flush with the muzzle.

I ran a series like this using two different patch materials for my fancy custom smokepole. But neither patch worked out to where I'd call them great. I need to get back out with some other patching and try again. And to do the same with the GPR.
 
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Haha! I too brought my vernier calipers to Fabricland. The lady commented on
How serious I was about the fabric!
The .015 denim I got had burnt (or wore) through in 5 places. But the .020 ticking seems too tight just trying it with the starter in the basement. It deformed the ball and would not start, so I am a bit reluctant
To try it over powder lest I get it stuck
 
Yeah, that sounds just a bit tight. Good choice to not get too carried away since you hadn't charged it yet. At least then you could have pounded it home and fired it off. I think you would have had the dickens getting a ball that tight pulled once it was too far down. Seriously, I have read of shooters who need a mallet to seat their ball. Hope they never dry-ball it.

On that note, I got one of those fancy CO2 dischargers and it works quite nicely. Do NOT like the idea of pulling a ball once I've squeezed the trigger, even if I'm sure I did or did not pour the powder in. If you have a removeable vent liner you can work some powder in and light it off also.

Shooting for group or zeroing, I use 5 rds. Your first shot, especially of the day, could take off somewhere and become irrelevant. But it could affect your reading of the target if it's close enough. Unless you've got a nice tight cloverleaf after 3 rounds, trying to identify group size and center could be misleading. 3 shots, two kind of close together. Did the first or third one walk away for some reason? Is the furthest one actually an honest shot and the middle one was a flinch? Don't normally get much of a circle from three shots, usually some kind of messed up triangle. The more rounds in a group, the better data you will have in the end. Only time I would use less than 5 shot groups is cold-bore shooting to confirm zero for hunting.

Most people seem to find their most accurate load somewhere between one and one and a half grains per caliber. So, for your rifle it could/should be between 50 and 80 gr. You might find more than one load that pleases you.
 
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