Accurizing the M1 Carbine
- Thread starter JEC
- Start date
The Kuhnhausen shop manual details how/where to the bed the stock. But, don't waste your time..so many other factors control the accuracy.
Factory ammo types, and barrel & muzzle condition are the main ones.
Different brands of ammo will give different groupings (at 100 yds), and there are some inconsistencies between batches of the same brands. I don't think there is any such thing as "match grade" 30 carbine ammo.
Barrel rifling should be acceptable (perfect ones that are 70 years old are hard to find). My experience has been then no USGI barrel makers were better than the others. Muzzle bore gauge is a good way to check muzzle wear, and make sure the bore has been either dressed to remove burrs , nicks etc. That's why some carbine barrel muzzles are counterbored.
Trying different sears, rather than a trigger job, will improve trigger pull.
The carbine was designed to be effective out to about 100 yds on the enemy, so that's about what you have to play with as far as accuracy. 3 to 4 " groups is about it.
Factory ammo types, and barrel & muzzle condition are the main ones.
Different brands of ammo will give different groupings (at 100 yds), and there are some inconsistencies between batches of the same brands. I don't think there is any such thing as "match grade" 30 carbine ammo.
Barrel rifling should be acceptable (perfect ones that are 70 years old are hard to find). My experience has been then no USGI barrel makers were better than the others. Muzzle bore gauge is a good way to check muzzle wear, and make sure the bore has been either dressed to remove burrs , nicks etc. That's why some carbine barrel muzzles are counterbored.
Trying different sears, rather than a trigger job, will improve trigger pull.
The carbine was designed to be effective out to about 100 yds on the enemy, so that's about what you have to play with as far as accuracy. 3 to 4 " groups is about it.
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
Yes, that early Tradex barrel indexed perfectly right out of the wrapper. I knew it was 'short chambered" but didn't want to spend the money on a pull thru reamer for a "one-off" job. I had 6 or 7 hundred brass (gun show range brass buy) on hand so just shortened a couple hundred that I rotate as needed until I (if I ever do) I get it fully chambered. Pretty hard to justify changing a gun that shoots MOA while being notorious for 3-4 " groups..."if it ain't broken, don't fix it" kind of thing.
The only "modification" made has been to relieve the "stress fit" between the handgaurd collar and the action. First batch of bullets arrived this afternoon so loaded 10 to see if they would go bang. I was nervous because I have never loaded straight wall so kept the charge weight low. First shot sounded normal, brass looked OK so I traded the heavy safety glasses for my bifocals and shot a couple of 50M groups. POI is a bit right of POA so will up the charge to see what happens.
Hunting Deer with an M1 Carbine is like hunting with any other firearm. You have to be intimately familiar with its capabilities at the ranges you intend to shoot.
I have killed several Deer with the M1 Carbine round. All of them were under 75 yards. It was just fine for keeping the Whitetails out the garden and putting some welcome extra meat in the freezer. Every one of them fell to lung shots and at those close ranges, especially under 30 yards the bullets would pass right through. I would say it has slightly more range than a good bow and arrow.
My eyes were much better then. The irons were good enough to get the bullets where they belonged.
Understand, back in those days decent scopes were an oddity in my neck of the woods and quite honestly weren't needed for most hunting situations. I will admit that for the most part our stalking and blind building skills were pretty good. Nowadays, most hunters don't even know how to stalk or build a blind that won't chase away the Deer. Not all though. Those skills just seem to be lost arts to rifle hunters. I have seen some very skilled bow hunters though. I sometimes think that the rifles many hunt with today are not really designed for the type of hunting available in the West. To many folks only practice from a bench with very good scopes/rifles but when they have to take an offhand shot, the POI is anyone's guess.
No, I wouldn't suggest anyone choose the M1 Carbine as a primary hunting firearm but if you do your homework and know the capabilities intimately it will do the job as well as any 357 Magnum.
Until I was old enough to purchase my first M1 Carbine, my primary Deer rifle was a single shot Cooey in 22LR with Whiz Bang hollow points. Again, they worked well as long as I stayed within the capabilities of the cartridge being used.
The main reason I purchased the first M1 Carbine was to slaughter Steers. The 22LR was fine but it depended on who was doing the shooting. The M1 Carbine did the job with much less drama. Everything we had available in those days was milsurp, including the ammo. The Deer/Steers didn't notice the difference.
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The only "modification" made has been to relieve the "stress fit" between the handgaurd collar and the action. First batch of bullets arrived this afternoon so loaded 10 to see if they would go bang. I was nervous because I have never loaded straight wall so kept the charge weight low. First shot sounded normal, brass looked OK so I traded the heavy safety glasses for my bifocals and shot a couple of 50M groups. POI is a bit right of POA so will up the charge to see what happens.
Be very careful with increasing powder charges in such a small case. The Carbine is a great little action but its limits are much lower, in the pistol range. A very small increase in powder can make a huge difference. Also, keep in mind that those rifles, unless they are commercial variants were built under wartime emergency conditions. Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the later commercial variants were made from some of the same parts. Caution is the byword here. I have seen more than one M1 Carbine owner with a bruised hand from a stock splitting and a magazine being blown out the bottom of the rifle. Usually, the trigger assembly frame takes the brunt of the beating and the cast frame breaks or the bolt loses half its face.
The powder of choice in the late sixties and early seventies was 2400. Not because it was the best but because it was the most available and was useful in other cases as well. Another thing to be careful with is bullet weight. I have seen people go to 125/130/150 grain bullets trying to get more out of their rifles. A lot of nice and sometimes rare Carbines were relegated to the scrap bin because of poor judgement and little due diligence. People were very inclined to experiment then and didn't understand that increasing powder by a certain percentage didn't correlate directly to pressure increases.
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I agree with both the above statements...hunting with a Carbine has "yardage" limitations, period. I have only shot a couple of deer with the little warrior (both full grown, one a WT, one a large mule doe). Both were 75 or 80 yrds and both were broadside, complete pass-thru, boiler-room shots, one made a couple of jumps before piling up, the other 4 or 5 and then died.
The ammo I use is all handloaded and I loaded "light" (around 1500 fps if I remember right) to begin with that wouldn't work the action and increased a grain at a time until I had a load that just works the action reliably (around 1750 fps.) and stopped at that.
The ammo I use is all handloaded and I loaded "light" (around 1500 fps if I remember right) to begin with that wouldn't work the action and increased a grain at a time until I had a load that just works the action reliably (around 1750 fps.) and stopped at that.
Thanks for the heads up regarding charge weights. I am loading in small batches (15 at a time) just in case I see pressure and need to trash a few. I will be using only 110gr FMJ for the time being, pushed by H110, and lit with CCI BR4's. My start load was 13.7gr (15.0gr is the listed max) and will next try 14.5gr...and if everything looks OK, on to the full 15gr. I am starting to think of a rear mount for a red dot as these old eyes don't focus quite like they should. The rifle is a new Auto Ord so should be solid.
Braved the wet and windy weather and found it not too bad for shooting. Target on the right is bulk Hornady with 14.7 gr H110 // Middle is Hornady "boxed" bullets with 14.7 gr // Left target is bulk Hornady with 15gr H110 which is Hodgdons Max. Looks like the bit of velocity increase has changed barrel harmonics enough to bring the windage POI to the same as POA, (POA is with the top of the front sight just a tickle below the red line).
Is it time to file a bit more off the front sight or should it wait a bit?
Is it time to file a bit more off the front sight or should it wait a bit?
I've used the M-1 to bag a few deer over the years. I haven't used it for hunting in a few years though due to failing eyes. The farthest I took one was 60 yards or so using some old production Winchester factory 110 Hollow point ammo. I was lucky enough to pick up 400 rounds of that from an estate sale about 12 years ago. That 60 yard shot was a broadside double lung hit that passed through with LOTS of expansion. The deer never moved off the spot, just dropped. The other 2 were much closer with the same ammunition and pretty much the same results. That Winchester hollow point stuff works great. I also hand load 110 soft points for plinking with H110 powder. My load data is out in the shop but I believe it came from the Speer manual. That ammunition works excellent and is accurate as well. I don't seem to have any problem shooting 2-3 inch groups at 75 yards with any of my 3 carbines with the Winchester ammo. Never shot paper with my hand loads, just gongs and tin cans. One is a very early Universal with all GI parts other than unrestricted barrel on it now, an other is an original 1943 Underwood and the last one is a GI 1944 Inland with non restricted barrel installed.
I have an Inland 9-44 M1A1, all original. Genuine GIs are a collectors item. To alter/modify it, destroys it's value.
One can buy new clones made on c.1945 design, Inland makes 'em for around $900USD. They even have one with a Picatinny rail. Best to mod one of these IMHO
One can buy new clones made on c.1945 design, Inland makes 'em for around $900USD. They even have one with a Picatinny rail. Best to mod one of these IMHO
Magnetospeed says 15.0 gr of H110 is pushing these 110gr Hornady FMJ's about 2020 fps. This NR Auto Ordnance has an 18.6" barrel.
Not familiar (yet) the peep/blade combination, but it looks to me that some file work on the front sight to slim it down could be advantageous?
Not familiar (yet) the peep/blade combination, but it looks to me that some file work on the front sight to slim it down could be advantageous?
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I am finding the peep/blade combination a bit of a challenge.. Most 100M groups are 4-5". Once winter rolls in, I am going to tinker with some bedding ideas, file the front sight a bit narrower, and reduce trigger creep.
I am also staring to think that group consistency may suffer as a result of the rather generous headspace which might be resolved pretty easily by setting trim brass trim length to 1.286? Any thoughts in this regard?
I am also staring to think that group consistency may suffer as a result of the rather generous headspace which might be resolved pretty easily by setting trim brass trim length to 1.286? Any thoughts in this regard?
I trim mine to 1.285". I have a good selection of bolts, and was able to headspace all of my carbines to the 1.290" mininum. This gives me .005" headspace on all of them which is reasonable and ensures that there will be NO out of battery issues to worry about. My pet handload is 14.9grs of H110 or Win 296. Both of these powders have produced phenomenal groups @ 100m with Hornady and Sierra 110gr FMJ's. Generally, the 110gr soft points are a bit more accurate, but that is subjective...
I set my carbines to "hang" the barrel at 1/8"-3/16" above the barrel channel (after rapping the buttstock to seat the receiver tang to the recoil shield). I use only type 2, or type 3 bands. Adjust the fingers on the bottom of the band that bear on the barrel surface so that the band fits snugly and slides along the barrel with some resistance. You don't want the barrel floating around when the band is tightened, which was the main problem with the Type 1 band. Some movement fore and aft of the hand guard is desirable.
For better trigger pulls, just swap around hammers and sears until you get a pull that is decent, and without too much creep. The stamped and brazed trigger guards have a better trigger stop, and reduce the aftertravel somewhat.
I set my carbines to "hang" the barrel at 1/8"-3/16" above the barrel channel (after rapping the buttstock to seat the receiver tang to the recoil shield). I use only type 2, or type 3 bands. Adjust the fingers on the bottom of the band that bear on the barrel surface so that the band fits snugly and slides along the barrel with some resistance. You don't want the barrel floating around when the band is tightened, which was the main problem with the Type 1 band. Some movement fore and aft of the hand guard is desirable.
For better trigger pulls, just swap around hammers and sears until you get a pull that is decent, and without too much creep. The stamped and brazed trigger guards have a better trigger stop, and reduce the aftertravel somewhat.
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Installed an Ultimak rail so I could put on a red dot which should give me a better idea of the the rifle's potential as I am still not comfortable with the peeps. Too windy to shoot at 100M today, so backed off to 50M to see what would happen. Right and center group shot with the same dot intensity, one on the left a bit brighter. I have a type 1 Barrel band and have shimmed it with a piece of aluminum pop can to reduce movement, but it looks I am getting a some change in POI. (Could be the mount turning on the barrel?) Suggestions/ comments?
If the groups are all with the same ammo, then the POI change could be the mount coming loose, or the barrel heating up, or...
Too many variables to diagnose over the internet. One other thing to check is that when the action is in the stock, that the barrel is centered in the stock channel, and that the sides of the slide don't rub on the inside walls of the stock when slide is all the way forward. To check this you assemble the gun without the handguard so you can visually inspect.
Too many variables to diagnose over the internet. One other thing to check is that when the action is in the stock, that the barrel is centered in the stock channel, and that the sides of the slide don't rub on the inside walls of the stock when slide is all the way forward. To check this you assemble the gun without the handguard so you can visually inspect.
