Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Accuwedge gimmick or useful piece of kit?
- Thread starter Safeside
- Start date
they once soldered an upper and lower together to prove once and for all no impact on accuracy
Agreed and why I stated "particularly in shooters who do not shoot a significant amount or who do not dry fire a lot for trigger practice", meaning people who as you say smear the trigger to the side.
I never stated it made the rifle more accurate, because you're right a trigger won't make a rifle more accurate. They may make an inexperienced shooter more accurate though; which is why I said "Therefore it is this very movement of pulling a trigger that can and does affect the flight path of a bullet (among other things). Which is why smooth, adjustable pound (low pound) triggers are so popular for increasing accuracy" and why I stated my earlier quote to emphasize it's the shooter it's helping not the rifle.
But hey we all know how communicating via text is a pain in the @ss for extrapolating the correct meaning.
I appreciate you clarifying it Gunnerlove and I got nothing but respect for your infinite firearms knowledge.
Cheers D
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Gimmick.
Just like 90% of all AR accessories. Market is so over saturated with stupid pointless trinkets for that gun it's almost laughable.
The AR15 has become THE current rifle platform used to separate suckers from their money. Beware.
Just like 90% of all AR accessories. Market is so over saturated with stupid pointless trinkets for that gun it's almost laughable.
The AR15 has become THE current rifle platform used to separate suckers from their money. Beware.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
I take some issue to the blanket statement movement between the upper and lower has no effect on accuracy. If you are saying a small amount of up and down at the rear pin I'll agree. Movement side to side at the front pin may have some effect on how the round strikes the feed ramp. At one point I was doing something that was causing my first shot to be consistently off. It took me a bit to realize that I wasn't releasing the charging handle the way I would with store bought fodder. Let's just ignore the why and focus on the fact that by drawing the charging handle full to the rear and letting it fly made the flyer go away. It's pretty obvious that how the round was striking the feed ramp was effecting the first shot. Could I have eliminated it with a firmer crimp, probably, without a cannelure I may have been creating other problems though. How does that relate, my upper and lower had an excessive amount of side to side play. I'm assuming it was because the upper is a Colt large pin, regardless, using a magwedge didn't eliminate this movement but it did seem to dampen it a bit. It also made it clear that much of the movement was side to side and at the front pin. On closer inspection the side to side movement was in one direction. Turns out a bit of beer can makes the perfect shim, side to side movement is gone, and the upper and lower line up perfectly (at least to the eye/touch). Another thing to consider is the effect of movement on wear on the pin holes. There was some speculation that the upward pressure would accelerate wear, and perhaps it can. I'd suggest that movement will do that even faster and in all directions, but probably not enough to matter in both cases. If it did though my vote would be on movement being more harmful. Fine particles will get in there, some of it much harder than both the Aluminum and steel...you don't sand something by pressing the sand paper hard in one place, movement is required.
Does a Magwedge make a rifle more accurate? Maybe, I say that as we don't know how the upper and lower fit before the experiments by the AMU and NGMTC were conducted. Unless we can say it was excessive in the first place we can't say it has no effect, period (any of you study Engineering or Science?). If I had of listened to the consensus I wouldn't have bothered doing anything about the side to side. It's a shame I installed my trigger springs shortly after I shimmed the rifle, because since I shimmed it, it has been shooting tighter groups, I just haven't had it out enough to say if it is significant.
Does a Magwedge make a rifle more accurate? Maybe, I say that as we don't know how the upper and lower fit before the experiments by the AMU and NGMTC were conducted. Unless we can say it was excessive in the first place we can't say it has no effect, period (any of you study Engineering or Science?). If I had of listened to the consensus I wouldn't have bothered doing anything about the side to side. It's a shame I installed my trigger springs shortly after I shimmed the rifle, because since I shimmed it, it has been shooting tighter groups, I just haven't had it out enough to say if it is significant.
AR upgrades... Krieger match grade hand honed stainless steel barrel with 5R rifling... Geissele 2 stage 3.5 pound NM trigger that breaks like glass...Noveske free float NSR... Top of the line Nightforce 2.5-10x24 scope mounted in rock solid Larue SPR...Magpul PRS butt stock...SMK custom hand loaded ammo.
Accuracy potential of the above package is easily sub MOA or better...Assemble these items with an upper and lower that have 2MOA of measurable play and you just built a rifle with an accuracy potential of between 2.5-3 MOA...
Accuracy potential of the above package is easily sub MOA or better...Assemble these items with an upper and lower that have 2MOA of measurable play and you just built a rifle with an accuracy potential of between 2.5-3 MOA...
Found in most cases a bit of material can be removed from the accuwedge. Shave off the bottom, don't go too far.
This way it eliminates the wobble but pin can come out and don't have to squash the two halves together.
They work to cut down on rattle, but as others have stated does not improve accuracy.
This way it eliminates the wobble but pin can come out and don't have to squash the two halves together.
They work to cut down on rattle, but as others have stated does not improve accuracy.
as long as both lower and upper are built to milspec, upper and lower play has no correlation to accuracy.
Sometimes on CGN some of you are arguing that the earth is flat.
Tired of this argument.
I think we managed to assist the OP this time, even if stirring it up a little more in the process.
Like I stated earlier, if Colt Canada the pre-eminent Masters of all AR'dom
use them then there must be an actual qualitative and definitive reason; because we all know CC knows all when it comes to their most excellent AR's.
^ agreed and since I'm (one of the many) guilty of prolonging the agony of this debate I'll cease and desist any further comments (until further notice).
Cheers D
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I'm not usually saying too much on the Nutz but this discussion is something I have knowledge of and want to enlighten those in search of the truth...Besides it's too wet to do anything here on the farm anyway, so this thread has helped pass the time.
You guy's are right about a little slop not making any difference in accuracy but only if you are doing off hand running and gunning or shooting at large targets and a high level of accuracy does not matter.
If you want any degree of repeatable precision accuracy, which the AR platform is very capable of...You have to have a tight fit between the upper and lower as well as quality rifle components and ammo.
If you have a loose fitting AR you can prove this to yourself by doing what I described in post #57...I know guys have said things such as..."The bullet has already left the barrel before any slop can alter the bullets flight" and the like...These statements are flat out false...Same as Turdeau saying "the budget will balance it's self"
I know from my own experience how tightening up the fit increases accuracy and as well have talked with some manufacturers who say likewise...Les Baer, Noveske, JP and Larue...If you own any of these brands you know for yourself accuracy is not a problem...They sell tight rifles...There are also manufacturers that will not talk about the subject...Guess what...They manufacture loose fitting uppers and lowers.
The slop debate has been around a long time with it's share of proponents on both sides...I've come to the conclusion that the biggest reason for the two apposing views is because of the different degree of accuracy expected and the level of enlightenment.........
You guy's are right about a little slop not making any difference in accuracy but only if you are doing off hand running and gunning or shooting at large targets and a high level of accuracy does not matter.
If you want any degree of repeatable precision accuracy, which the AR platform is very capable of...You have to have a tight fit between the upper and lower as well as quality rifle components and ammo.
If you have a loose fitting AR you can prove this to yourself by doing what I described in post #57...I know guys have said things such as..."The bullet has already left the barrel before any slop can alter the bullets flight" and the like...These statements are flat out false...Same as Turdeau saying "the budget will balance it's self"
I know from my own experience how tightening up the fit increases accuracy and as well have talked with some manufacturers who say likewise...Les Baer, Noveske, JP and Larue...If you own any of these brands you know for yourself accuracy is not a problem...They sell tight rifles...There are also manufacturers that will not talk about the subject...Guess what...They manufacture loose fitting uppers and lowers.
The slop debate has been around a long time with it's share of proponents on both sides...I've come to the conclusion that the biggest reason for the two apposing views is because of the different degree of accuracy expected and the level of enlightenment.........
Gunnerlove
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Damn AMU and their performance driven analytical methods.
The simple fact is that decent receivers fit well enough that the play is not an issue.
Rifles with very worn or poorly made receivers may benefit from those same receivers being shimmed or wedged into an extreme of their travel. More would probably be gained however seeing those same out of spec or worn pieces shimmed or wedged into a scrap bin.
People need to stop worrying about trying to shoot repetitive little groups with rifles that cycle in .075 of a second. The dirty math is that a 2 moa rifle will still hold a pie plate at 500m if the shooter does their job of dealing with the constantly changing R5MOA-0-L5MOA wind and mirage. If I listened to the internet I would never have won anything with the army because I wasn't running an HK and they are awesome. Then again the guy with the super tight rifle with the almost working right adjustable gas system really has me beat as well.
This post bought to you by an 18 hour ski trip and 10 year old Bushmills.
Dry fire and recoil management.
The simple fact is that decent receivers fit well enough that the play is not an issue.
Rifles with very worn or poorly made receivers may benefit from those same receivers being shimmed or wedged into an extreme of their travel. More would probably be gained however seeing those same out of spec or worn pieces shimmed or wedged into a scrap bin.
People need to stop worrying about trying to shoot repetitive little groups with rifles that cycle in .075 of a second. The dirty math is that a 2 moa rifle will still hold a pie plate at 500m if the shooter does their job of dealing with the constantly changing R5MOA-0-L5MOA wind and mirage. If I listened to the internet I would never have won anything with the army because I wasn't running an HK and they are awesome. Then again the guy with the super tight rifle with the almost working right adjustable gas system really has me beat as well.
This post bought to you by an 18 hour ski trip and 10 year old Bushmills.
Dry fire and recoil management.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
Not everyone can afford to just toss what they have. I'm working with what I have and for a $3.95 can of Creemore, a $5.00 hunk of rubber, and 5 minutes of my time, I've made a "2 MOA" rifle shoot sub MOA off the bench. It can also do pretty much any game that requires a Semi-auto...a bit heavy though, nothing 20 minutes every three days with some dumbbells can't fix.
I have next to no pride so if anyone wants to toss that worn out of spec stuff my way I'd be happy to take it. Better still how about a GoFundMe Campaign for poor pathetic redshooter...I'm not above charity if it'll get me a few extra rifles.
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Not everyone can afford to just toss what they have. I'm working with what I have and for a $3.95 can of Creemore, a $5.00 hunk of rubber, and 5 minutes of my time, I've made a "2 MOA" rifle shoot sub MOA off the bench. It can also do pretty much any game that requires a Semi-auto...a bit heavy though, nothing 20 minutes every three days with some dumbbells can't fix.
I have next to no pride so if anyone wants to toss that worn out of spec stuff my way I'd be happy to take it. Better still how about a GoFundMe Campaign for poor pathetic redshooter...I'm not above charity if it'll get me a few extra rifles.
As the AMU found no change in performance with welded receivers, and countless experienced shooters have come to the same conclusion it is safe to say your claim is bogus.
An extra $3 is an extra $3, or about 6 more rounds of ammo. Which do you think is more useful six extra rounds of ammo to practice and enjoy or a useless piece of rubber that does nothing?
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
I see you are good at quoting dogma, also are you suggesting I'm inexperienced? Even the other member I quoted at least acknowledged that their findings may not apply to an out of spec upper/lower. Dismissing my claim without at least acknowledging that how a round strikes the ramp can effect the concentricity of the round and therefore its accuracy potential shows you have a bit to learn. I've built and ran bench test units, I know a little bit about doing experiments. Can you say the same?
Not everyone can afford to just toss what they have. I'm working with what I have and for a $3.95 can of Creemore, a $5.00 hunk of rubber, and 5 minutes of my time, I've made a "2 MOA" rifle shoot sub MOA off the bench. It can also do pretty much any game that requires a Semi-auto...a bit heavy though, nothing 20 minutes every three days with some dumbbells can't fix.
I have next to no pride so if anyone wants to toss that worn out of spec stuff my way I'd be happy to take it. Better still how about a GoFundMe Campaign for poor pathetic redshooter...I'm not above charity if it'll get me a few extra rifles.
At what distance are you Shooting is a good question ?. I mean really if under hundred meters that is not a problem . I have had my 24 in heavy barrel AR drivev5 shots thru a dime are 100 m with out the aid of a cheap gimmick.
redshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
(Sigh) Does anyone go through the thread first...
First it's a large pin HBAR on a regular lower, you actually have to orient the bushing first just to get the pins through the holes. There is plenty of slop on both ends, and why the shim, and the accuwedge. As to why I put up with it, I didn't intend to end up with a large pin upper, it was a gun store employees mistake. He misidentified the upper, I knew the price was too good to be true. When I received it I was pretty upset until I saw the condition it was almost like new. This is why I need to tighten it up a bit, as I stated in another thread it felt like you could shoot around corners with the thing without the magwedge. So my case is special, but it's clearly a case where it helps.
As for what distance, 3 weeks ago it was 300m, it would have been 600m, but it was pretty clear my scope wasn't going to allow it.
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I used the bushing pins on my 24 inch HBar Colt Commercial lower SGW upper receiver and use the same style of receivers on my Service rifle Colt Commercial /Colt A4 milspec upper . I did not find any problem they both were tight and I did not bother with a Accu wedge. If you have that much slop I would suggest getting a new lower receiver thats my 2 cents
