Acl @ cfsac

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glock17

GunNutz
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Hi Folks:

I was wondering if we could hear some feedback on ACL's performance running CFSAC this year? It's going to be time to look at tendering soon, and it would be nice to hear some positive and negative critique. An opportunity for the competitors to have a say in the direction CFSAC may be going.

Any and all thoughts will be appreciated..:)

Stay Safe
 
Overall I think ACL did a pretty good job considering it was thier first time.Places where they shined in my opinion were the following.
Adapting quickly to new challenges.

Listening to competitor and team captain feed back and making changes on the fly for the betterment of the competition.

Having seasoned competitors (retired)on the firing lines to help out.

Organization between sniper,service rifle and pistol seemed pretty well done.Never had to rush from one to another as has been the case in the past.

Professional range staff for the most part.

Suggestions for improvement.

Allow said seasoned retired competitors to RUN the matches.If you've never shot a service rifle or sniper match its going to be rough trying to run one.There were several folks there(including a 7 times QM winner)who know these matches inside and out.It was fairly obvious that the main range staff didn't know the matches.They had to be corrected by shooters AND seasoned range staff fairly regularly on what was next and the order of range commands.

Same thing goes for the butts.First operator didn't have a clue and made things difficult and even annoying down there.The calm demeanor of his replacement(a seasoned retired shooter) made things work smoothly and in a relaxed manner.Shooters mainly ran the pistol ranges and things there were mostly pretty smooth.Just because you've been in the military or on ranges for years doesn't mean you can run a smooth match.And smooth makes things quick.At times things were held up because the range staff didn't know what was next or the order of things.

Stats need to be sorted out in a timely manner.Aggs were not posted even after they had been asked for.People that shoot there need to see the stats.Teams plan strategy and such around them.

Utilize senior shooters more in the butts.Many times the seasoned shooters knew what targets had to be in place before the butts staff and when they tried to change targets were told not to.Wasted time.Senior shooters know these matches inside and out.Let them help oragnize the butts to expidite things so we're not shooting into darkness.

If I think of anything else I'll add it.
 
Ah yes.Do NOT cancel the sniper matches.Yes we realize that that attendance by qualified snipers may or may not be high.However CFSAC is a training mission.The more weapons systems ALL our soldiers,sailors and airmen know how to operate the better it is for the CF whether they are qualified or not.Unlike what the CF seems to think,bolt action guns are NOT THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT!Realizing that not everyone has access to issued guns,make a set of criteria for weapons allowed for the match and let folks shoot thier personal rifles if they have them.The more trigger time we all get is only going to benefit the CF.How many times do people get to dope wind at 900m?How are we going to learn if there is no oportunity to learn?How are we going to teach others if we ourselves don't get the chance to put the theory into practice?
The sniper matches ARE a benefit to the CF.Overseas you never know when you might be handed a weapons system that you are not really qualified on and need to defend your life or anothers with it.
 
LS,

Have you seen the e-mail chain on this stuff? I think you were cc'd on at least some of it.

I'm headed to the meeting next week. If you have some input for me, PLEASE send it to me asap at my home e-mail....the coffee one.

NS
 
Longshot said:
Ah yes.Do NOT cancel the sniper matches.Yes we realize that that attendance by qualified snipers may or may not be high.However CFSAC is a training mission.The more weapons systems ALL our soldiers,sailors and airmen know how to operate the better it is for the CF whether they are qualified or not.Unlike what the CF seems to think,bolt action guns are NOT THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT!Realizing that not everyone has access to issued guns,make a set of criteria for weapons allowed for the match and let folks shoot thier personal rifles if they have them.The more trigger time we all get is only going to benefit the CF.How many times do people get to dope wind at 900m?How are we going to learn if there is no oportunity to learn?How are we going to teach others if we ourselves don't get the chance to put the theory into practice?
The sniper matches ARE a benefit to the CF.Overseas you never know when you might be handed a weapons system that you are not really qualified on and need to defend your life or anothers with it.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid the decision to cancel the sniper comp was made before CFSAC was even over. We could be pleasantly surprised but with budget cuts coming I doubt it.
 
I think ACL did a great job considering it was the first year for them but would echo all of Longshot's points about supervision of the butts and firing point. Learning points for next year.

Their ability to deal with plans changes on the fly was excellent, apart from a few individuals they were just really good guys to work with. Awarding the contract as early as possible will improve the ability of whoever gets it to be more involved in the planning.
 
I got to echo LS on everything he said, even as a Tyro this year I found myself sometimes having to clarify what was said, thus throwing off concentration. I knew what match was next but what was announced was different. Also, the pistol matches were ran outstandingly well! The butts were a headache but did for the most part got sorted out.

Also I agree with LS let's keep the sniper matches. Budget be damned, the more trigger time a soldier, sailor, or airman can get the better for them here and abroad. Regardless of rifle action.
 
I have nothing to add to what was said by Longshot regarding ACL.

Regarding the Sniper comp.

It needs some changes, however where else are soldiers going to learn long range precision marksmanship. So they can't get real snipers out for the shoots then they need to be pushing it more as a designated marksman competition.
 
Sorry guys I don't have access to the DIN anymore so I can't get any email sent to that account.

I think Wils idea about a designated marksman comp instead of sniper is brilliant.However it would most likely need folks to bring their own guns.IE personal rifles that fit within a certain set of parameters.
 
Jay T said:
Good call Gunnerlove! Designated marksmen are being used by the boys over the pond with the AR-10 and other marksman rifles. Very practical and beneficial to all!!!
Click to expand...

I like this remark. I like how the evolution of the DM is happening in the sandbox and maybe this is going to become more cemented for our organization in the CF (Section/Platoon org, I mean).

Here's hoping..... :D

:cheers:
Barney
 
The DM idea is outstanding, and it is in keeping with the idea of developing a more "operationally" oriented competition. I keep hearing that comment everywhere, and while I would always support the idea of constantly developing training, as I am in that mode permanently in my own business, I also see value in having traditional matches, and using them as a basis for teaching the foundations of marksmanship in our members..

I'm grateful for the comments folks, even the shortfalls, we want this job, and are willing to make ALL of the changes required to get it, and keep it for the foreseeable future.

Thank You
 
Sorry, but is it just me that thinks this is the inappropriate place for this?

A huge government contract using an anonymous gun forum for feedback?

Surely the Miltary and public works must have a real system to accomplish this.:confused:
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Sorry, but is it just me that thinks this is the inappropriate place for this?

A huge government contract using an anonymous gun forum for feedback?

Surely the Miltary and public works must have a real system to accomplish this.:confused:
Click to expand...

You may be right, I think it might just be you....:D

I'm here, obviously in no official capacity, to get some honest feedback from the competitors, most of whom I know, have shot with, and served with in the past.

Why? Because I want to do a better job next time around. Me, personally, not just as a part of a bigger organization.

I can't see what your problem with that would be?

The regular chanels aren't always the most efficient way of getting at the core of the issues, been there, done that, gave back the T Shirt long ago..

Stay Safe
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Sorry, but is it just me that thinks this is the inappropriate place for this?

A huge government contract using an anonymous gun forum for feedback?

Surely the Miltary and public works must have a real system to accomplish this.:confused:
Click to expand...

This is a more accurate way of gathering information........Talking to the end user.

So many of the CF's decisions have no input from the end user.......
 
Freedom Ventures said:
Sorry, but is it just me that thinks this is the inappropriate place for this?

A huge government contract using an anonymous gun forum for feedback?

Surely the Miltary and public works must have a real system to accomplish this.:confused:
Click to expand...

The CF does have a real system, it works well and many of these points have been discussed already. Many of the people commenting on this SR forum and ACL leadership were there at the CFSAC after action review and some will be there at the working group to try to make a good comp even better next time round.

There is nothing classified about a shooting comp and no danger of conflict of interest so there is no harm in people speaking their minds. Transparency , open minds, and leaving your ego at the door is encouraged in the AAR system. One of the benefits of this forum is that anybody can read the comments and compete for the contract next year and hopefully the best company gets the contract if it is offered again. I really do not care who it is as long as they do their job well.
 
I am no longer qualified to shoot at CFSAC, but if I may make a suggestion about the idea of a DM competition...

I think there would be no need to draw up equipment rules for this as an experimental class, and no need to create or run separate new matches. Simply require competitors to shoot the existing matches 1-12, and the existing sniper matches all with the same rifle. This combination of conditions would define what rifle platforms would be successful, and would prove to be very challenging.

There would probably be few competitors in this class the first year and would cause minimal overhead in terms of administration. Simply a checkbox on the entry form, another query/column to calculate in the stats scoring system and an extra medal or plaque to hand out.

If CFSAC won't try it, maybe NSCC should.
 
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