Action questions - what am I feeling?
- Thread starter Jaminous
- Start date
Being that you want to shoot out to 2000m, what caliber are you planning your build around? I ask this cause if you're looking for consistent results at that distance you'll need, at a minimum, an action sized for a .338 Lapua Magnum and there are significantly less of those to choose from than standard short and long actions.
Well, I'm a big fan of 300 NM although I've yet to shoot mine to 2km (1830 yards being farthest so far) but it's a very potent caliber. Generally has better ballistics than a .338 inside 2k as well. Mine has a 29.5 Krieger chambered by Insite Arms on a Stiller Tac 338 sitting in a MDT ESS and I have nothing but good things to say about it.
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As RugbyDave says, a .300NM will certainly limit your action options.
I also have a .300NM, though went with a Defiance Deviant that I had the raceways polished and had it coated/treated in DLC. It's been a great action for its purpose.
If you want more action choices, you can step down to a .300 PRC, which will really open things up (with an added bonus of cost savings as well).
Don't over think it - just get the action that checks the most boxes for you. They are all pretty much all excellent these days, just slight different nuances to them.
I also have a .300NM, though went with a Defiance Deviant that I had the raceways polished and had it coated/treated in DLC. It's been a great action for its purpose.
If you want more action choices, you can step down to a .300 PRC, which will really open things up (with an added bonus of cost savings as well).
Don't over think it - just get the action that checks the most boxes for you. They are all pretty much all excellent these days, just slight different nuances to them.
^^^^^^^^^This is the best advice. Make a list of important features your looking for. Integrated recoil lug, push feed or control round, swappable bolt heads or complete bolts, 2 lug or 3 lug, and then see what offerings there are with your desired wants and that fits your price point.
Laker415, kthomas:
I like the advice. Takes the subjective our really quickly when I make a list of the musthhaves and like to haves, rather than adapting to the missing things one way or another. As I'm exploring more I'm gaining more information of some of the subtleties that matter to me that might not matter to others.
I like the advice. Takes the subjective our really quickly when I make a list of the musthhaves and like to haves, rather than adapting to the missing things one way or another. As I'm exploring more I'm gaining more information of some of the subtleties that matter to me that might not matter to others.
Thanks man, possibly my favourite rifle, haha.
Do you get enough elevation with that bipod
I could use it for indirect fire with that bipod, haha.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I have had the pleasure and privilege to shoot very far for many years. I have built many boomers as well as other more competition focused rigs. I have helped a number of shooters fulfill their dreams in all manner of goals... but when it comes to 'want to shoot out to 2000m'... the first and most important question is
Where do you live or have access to? Many populated places in Canada have some real logistical problems when trying to reach out that far.
If this is a once a year/lifetime type trip, then consider the distances you can access often and build something that makes this as challenging.
I am now mucking about with rimfire at distance and I can say that getting the set up right to hit a reasonable sized target out to 500yds with a 22lr is a hoot. A few brave souls are trying to reach 1000yds reliably.... not my cup of tea but you want to learn all about ELR ballistics and wind and weather?
On a more accessible note, a mid sized 6.5 case will easily reach out to a mile.... and if you are like 90% of the shooters, your one gun will spend more time inside 1000yds then beyond. You aren't going to learn unless you put lead downrange... 1000rds isn't alot of shooting if you are truly interested in mastering LR shooting... so think of this journey in terms of BARRELS.
For plinking, I really enjoy my 22 Creedmoor and inside 1500yds, shoots great. for 1 mile, the good ole 308Win set up for FTR type bullets .... the combo can go alot further but the spot we venture to most often is best suited to the mile. And yes, I do shoot with those that use boomers including a 408CT (sigh, change the damn laws back).
Shooters have been shooting 6BR's to 1 mile for years. I did take a 223 Rem to 1 mile many years back... definitely not my choice today but that same set up had to no issue going hit for hit with a 338 Lapua to 1400yds.
The 284 Win can shoot ridiculously well at 1000yds... we know the bullets can easily reach 1 mile.
Your lowly 300WM has reached distance much further then your goals... and I have little doubt that 185gr VLD will make the trip. If not, just load some new gen Sierra 200grs or Berger 200-20Xs and hit 1 mile and beyond easily. Talk to those that have real world experience... ballistic app gurus may not understand what is actually going to happen downrange.
If you have a game or want to break something way out there, then by all means, build the horsepower to make the trip 'boring'. If you just want to have accurate fun way the heck out there, this is more a bullet question then a cartridge question.
To put things in perspective, each 150fps is around 100yds of addn ELR distance before things hit the wall... if they are going to hit the wall. compare the ballistics of a Berger 200-20X (BC data very well sorted) at 2600fps, 2800fps, 3000fps wrt to drop and most importantly DRIFT.
by all means, if a boomer is what you want, build it... but I would worry about finding components, dies, powder long before you worry about what action you want to use.
YMMV
Jerry
Lotsa good points above. It's really all about which requirements you want to prioritize the most. The more "horsepower" you have, the more you're stacking the odds in your favour when shooting at extended distances. Your current setup should get you to 2000m. A 300NM would get you there "more reliably". There are other things to consider as well, how often will you have access to extended ranges to shoot? Would be a shame to burn up your barrel shooting closer distances (considering you'll probably get 1k rounds out of a 300NM). Also, what is the terrain like where you'll be shooting and is it easy to spot splash? For the sake of perspective, I never really had any huge interest in "boomers" as I shoot PRS-type matches so shot 6mm for matches and lotsa .223 and some .308 and 6.5 for practice. One day I realized I could setup steel at 1500 and 1600 yards at my local long range spot (15ish minutes from home). Now, I could hit those targets with my 6 and 6.5 but I occasionally needed someone else on glass to know I was hitting as there was no energy on target. Furthermore, when I missed, it was often next to impossible to spot splash as the targets are in cut blocks and following trace in was hard as the bullet arced so high and I would lose the trace as the round descended (since the backdrop was coniferous trees). That led me down the path of building a large .30cal magnum. If I lived somewhere different where splash was easier to pickup, I'd probably just have stuck to using a 6.5 at those distances. All that to say, I'd sit down and write out the requirements you have and determine which attributes you weight most and make your caliber selection based on that. Also, if you already have access to a target at 2km, I'd suggest taking a poke or 3 at it with your current 300WM, haha.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
How accurate can one shoot a magnum at distance? Grouping well with any high recoiling rifle takes alot of skill. If you are self spotting, this becomes a huge concern.
All the logistics around ranging, spotting impacts and misses is a very significant headache.. figure out where you are going to shoot that will allow you to be successful. I got terrain that goes on for miles BUT the locations suitable for spotting impacts is alot harder to find.
Beyond the rifle, you will need to budget for good support optics and rangefinders. Got a vehicle that you can get to those remote locations?
There is a ton to learn and experience... maybe start with an easier setup for more moderate distances. When you have learnt enough to dominate this, you will also know if a few hundred yards further is worth the bother.
And if you want to learn... you shoot ALOT. That likely means more then 1 rifle... and a VERY LARGE ongoing budget. not sure what your disposable income is but a 300NM going bang is likely going to cost around $5. Shooting 100rds per session is no big deal.
I like to shoot once a week.... more if time allows. And then you need to change out that barrel 10 to 12 sessions of 100rds per... better get that next barrel tuned up in the first 50rds.
Jerry
FYI, shooting the 22LR at 400+yds takes 20 to 30mils of travel. I simulate shooting a boomer a really long ways for around 20cents a pop.
All the logistics around ranging, spotting impacts and misses is a very significant headache.. figure out where you are going to shoot that will allow you to be successful. I got terrain that goes on for miles BUT the locations suitable for spotting impacts is alot harder to find.
Beyond the rifle, you will need to budget for good support optics and rangefinders. Got a vehicle that you can get to those remote locations?
There is a ton to learn and experience... maybe start with an easier setup for more moderate distances. When you have learnt enough to dominate this, you will also know if a few hundred yards further is worth the bother.
And if you want to learn... you shoot ALOT. That likely means more then 1 rifle... and a VERY LARGE ongoing budget. not sure what your disposable income is but a 300NM going bang is likely going to cost around $5. Shooting 100rds per session is no big deal.
I like to shoot once a week.... more if time allows. And then you need to change out that barrel 10 to 12 sessions of 100rds per... better get that next barrel tuned up in the first 50rds.
Jerry
FYI, shooting the 22LR at 400+yds takes 20 to 30mils of travel. I simulate shooting a boomer a really long ways for around 20cents a pop.
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Some exceptionally good points to be considered by all.
I did not consider terrain that I'm shooting in. It is exactly as per RugbyDave's picture. In the mountains, coniferous trees, cut blocks and cut lines, mountain to mountain, etc
I didn't consider splash. Relatively easy for me to get to since I'm generally all over Alberta and one of my bases of operations is in the mountains. I agree that these wilderness outings are relatively few compared to range outings that are closer. You might be right that making it "too easy" could take the challenge out of it vs lobbing some 185gr pebbles at things.
As for the boomers vs non - I see that as part of the challenge. To be able to hold, shoot a couple hundred rounds, take the beating and work on endurance doing it. Again, I'm built for that sort of thing so it's not as bad as it sounds really.
Cost? Can't argue there. Smaller to shoot is cheaper. Just a different sort of thing. Maybe not what I 'want' since I like the challenge of heavier hitters with more push back. Should theoretically make it easier to move backwards to easier shooting calibres right? Well that's my theory...
I definitely can see the value in running a .22 long distance and I don't underestimate the ability for a long-range 22 as a method to really fine tune and understand ELR larger calibre work.
Barrels? Budgets? Yea....not loving it and I definitely have a better understanding than when I first pushed into it. Ready(ish?)....lol!
Components? Got most of it. Everyone told me from the start it's my most important thing...high weight bullets, powder, brass. Primers? I'm SOL there so hoping to find someone to trade some gear to for them. Now I'll sit on it all like an idiot for a year until a gun is built. In the mean time I'll likely burn out that 300wm barrel...
Did I also mention my wife is pushing to go on this journey with me? She feels unchallenged by the .308 and wishes to actually move up to the 300wm based on trying mine. She is tougher than me. Call it part of endurance training as I learn to balance nagging and concentration work....haha JK. Really good she's not on the forums yet and when/if she does I'm deleting this.
I did not consider terrain that I'm shooting in. It is exactly as per RugbyDave's picture. In the mountains, coniferous trees, cut blocks and cut lines, mountain to mountain, etc
I didn't consider splash. Relatively easy for me to get to since I'm generally all over Alberta and one of my bases of operations is in the mountains. I agree that these wilderness outings are relatively few compared to range outings that are closer. You might be right that making it "too easy" could take the challenge out of it vs lobbing some 185gr pebbles at things.
As for the boomers vs non - I see that as part of the challenge. To be able to hold, shoot a couple hundred rounds, take the beating and work on endurance doing it. Again, I'm built for that sort of thing so it's not as bad as it sounds really.
Cost? Can't argue there. Smaller to shoot is cheaper. Just a different sort of thing. Maybe not what I 'want' since I like the challenge of heavier hitters with more push back. Should theoretically make it easier to move backwards to easier shooting calibres right? Well that's my theory...
I definitely can see the value in running a .22 long distance and I don't underestimate the ability for a long-range 22 as a method to really fine tune and understand ELR larger calibre work.
Barrels? Budgets? Yea....not loving it and I definitely have a better understanding than when I first pushed into it. Ready(ish?)....lol!
Components? Got most of it. Everyone told me from the start it's my most important thing...high weight bullets, powder, brass. Primers? I'm SOL there so hoping to find someone to trade some gear to for them. Now I'll sit on it all like an idiot for a year until a gun is built. In the mean time I'll likely burn out that 300wm barrel...
Did I also mention my wife is pushing to go on this journey with me? She feels unchallenged by the .308 and wishes to actually move up to the 300wm based on trying mine. She is tougher than me. Call it part of endurance training as I learn to balance nagging and concentration work....haha JK. Really good she's not on the forums yet and when/if she does I'm deleting this.
.30 cal "boomers" are fairly tame, if we are being honest. Once you step up to .33+ calibers, the recoil becomes considerably more. The .300NM is a pussy cat with a good brake on a heavy rifle.
There's trade-offs no matter which way you go.
- Bigger caliber = more recoil & higher cost. But this comes with more visible splashes across terrains, and better ballistic performance.
- Smaller calibers = easy to shoot, low cost, lots of fun. Can be very challenging in certain conditions, especially if the terrain doesn't make it easy to spot. If you can't see where you are missing, then you are hopelessly trying to make guesses to get on target. Smaller calibers will also have the consideration of requiring enough elevation (scope + mount, reticle) in order to aim at the target. If you are aiming off in "dead space" in the reticle, then you may as well be guessing.
Lots to think about.
Always great to have an individual rifle for each task. While I have a .300NM, it's not my every day rifle. In fact, I rarely shoot it now as I don't have a good place to stretch it out. It's a waste of time to shoot it 1,000 yards and in.
There's trade-offs no matter which way you go.
- Bigger caliber = more recoil & higher cost. But this comes with more visible splashes across terrains, and better ballistic performance.
- Smaller calibers = easy to shoot, low cost, lots of fun. Can be very challenging in certain conditions, especially if the terrain doesn't make it easy to spot. If you can't see where you are missing, then you are hopelessly trying to make guesses to get on target. Smaller calibers will also have the consideration of requiring enough elevation (scope + mount, reticle) in order to aim at the target. If you are aiming off in "dead space" in the reticle, then you may as well be guessing.
Lots to think about.
Always great to have an individual rifle for each task. While I have a .300NM, it's not my every day rifle. In fact, I rarely shoot it now as I don't have a good place to stretch it out. It's a waste of time to shoot it 1,000 yards and in.
Yeah, I agree with all this. My 300NM with a 5-port Insite Heathen is super tame to shoot. Granted it's about 21lbs all in (Bipod, scope, mag, etc) but there's no added weight other than the truck axle of a barrel, haha. It's easy to spot splash shooting standing and kneeling off a tripod and I generally pick up my own trace when shooting prone at 600 or so yards and out (although I almost never shoot it inside 1000 yards).
Some really great advice in this thread, I have two actions that I run which I would put in the same class as those that you mentioned in your initial post.
Action 1 - Impact 737R with a 4 groove Kreiger 7.5twist 6.5 Creed built by the guys at Insite, its sitting in a Foundation stock. I did a write up post on the gun here at the link below. I went with the Impact for a couple of reasons, this gun is for banging steel plates primarily, it is a tank of a thing to haul around with the truck axle profile barrel I chose for it. The driver behind the Impact for me was the reputation for reliable cycling in all conditions, it is quite nice as well and felt really good to me. Previously I ran Tikka's for the most part with a sprinkling of Rem 700's so the Impact was a big step up for me. The other reason for me was the ability to spin barrels off and on with relative ease and no need to send it off to a gunsmith and wait for weeks on end to get a barrelled action completed.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...site-kicks-ass-A-Thank-You-to-Andy-and-Harley
Action 2 - AI AX (ATX) - So the AI action is fairly different than the ones you mentioned in terms of feel and bolt manipulation because of the swept back handle and the notch it locks into when fully closed. This is a PRS style gun and chassis system that also attracted me because of AI's reputation and I've always wanted to try one out. I've only had it a short time but so far like it a lot but I am still under a 100 rounds on the gun so lots to learn still. The barrel swap capability was again a deciding factor for me with this one, which is even easier than the Impact mentioned above as there is not need for an action wrench and barrel vise to do a swap.
I think you have a lot of great advice here and it would be hard to go wrong with any of the choices you've listed out.
Action 1 - Impact 737R with a 4 groove Kreiger 7.5twist 6.5 Creed built by the guys at Insite, its sitting in a Foundation stock. I did a write up post on the gun here at the link below. I went with the Impact for a couple of reasons, this gun is for banging steel plates primarily, it is a tank of a thing to haul around with the truck axle profile barrel I chose for it. The driver behind the Impact for me was the reputation for reliable cycling in all conditions, it is quite nice as well and felt really good to me. Previously I ran Tikka's for the most part with a sprinkling of Rem 700's so the Impact was a big step up for me. The other reason for me was the ability to spin barrels off and on with relative ease and no need to send it off to a gunsmith and wait for weeks on end to get a barrelled action completed.
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...site-kicks-ass-A-Thank-You-to-Andy-and-Harley
Action 2 - AI AX (ATX) - So the AI action is fairly different than the ones you mentioned in terms of feel and bolt manipulation because of the swept back handle and the notch it locks into when fully closed. This is a PRS style gun and chassis system that also attracted me because of AI's reputation and I've always wanted to try one out. I've only had it a short time but so far like it a lot but I am still under a 100 rounds on the gun so lots to learn still. The barrel swap capability was again a deciding factor for me with this one, which is even easier than the Impact mentioned above as there is not need for an action wrench and barrel vise to do a swap.
I think you have a lot of great advice here and it would be hard to go wrong with any of the choices you've listed out.
KThomas, RugybyDave,
I'm picking up what you're laying down. Both of us are used to our rifles in roughly a 10-lbs form and no brake. We'll be moving well into 18+ lbs with the new "upgrades". I don't think the additional energy of the chosen cartridges will end up being an issue with felt recoil.
Kthomas, let me know if you're moving back from Arizona any time soon. I know a guy who might be interested in a 300NM....lol!
Devlin:
Thanks for chiming in! If I could be so lucky as to build a gun that would shoot as well at that creedmore I'd be very pleased. Of course your skill and load development is paramount in that. If someone would like to work up a Gun and load for me like that then I can really focus on working at my skills knowing it's me and not the gun! Lol
I'm a fan of the AI too. I think in the end there are alot of options I would be happy with as long as they'll shoot reliably and consistently. The more we have discussed in this thread, the more I recognize the importance of barrel quick change since there really is concern about burning up a barrel once a year. Plus I get to pretend to be a gunsmith once a year.
Jefferson's mention of the Borden action sent me on a wild googling to learn some more and I really like what I see there. My only concern is fitting one of those enlarged rem700 bigfoots into an MPA matrix chassis - not sure if it can be done but I'd like to find out. This is the platform that best fits me and balances the best. For me, it's probably the most important thing I'm looking for - fit and balance because I am (like a fool) planning to also hunt with it for the extra challenge. My height and reach is otherwise more or less average so near any adjustable stock I've come across can fit well enough for bench or prone. They just lack the balance to some degree or another, or aren't "just right", which really doesn't matter too much off the bench.
After that is the choice of action (and cartridge). After discussing with you all I believe I'm valuing tight tolerances with enough clearance for hunting. Tempting on the impact for its ability to clear alot more rough conditions so if I can ever get into prs one day it would be nice to know I'm set up. Don't love the feel but I can adapt. The terminus or defiance seem to be a good in-between on say an Impact or a Borden. Seems like we're really splitting hairs now. I don't think I'll be unhappy with any choice but now I understand what each of these are bringing to the table much better because of this thread - you guys have all been a great resource here to help me wrap my head around it. Right now I'm leaning towards Borden and Terminus for the comparative lug strength (I'm making assumption that the 3 lug set up is able to resist setback generally as well as a heavier 2-lug?) I am also in love with their oversized integrated recoil lugs.
Barrel I have my heart set on an oversized MTU or Heavy varmint. So that will be a significant wait in itself on a custom profile. I'm also realizing I better order two based on this thread.
I'm picking up what you're laying down. Both of us are used to our rifles in roughly a 10-lbs form and no brake. We'll be moving well into 18+ lbs with the new "upgrades". I don't think the additional energy of the chosen cartridges will end up being an issue with felt recoil.
Kthomas, let me know if you're moving back from Arizona any time soon. I know a guy who might be interested in a 300NM....lol!
Devlin:
Thanks for chiming in! If I could be so lucky as to build a gun that would shoot as well at that creedmore I'd be very pleased. Of course your skill and load development is paramount in that. If someone would like to work up a Gun and load for me like that then I can really focus on working at my skills knowing it's me and not the gun! Lol
I'm a fan of the AI too. I think in the end there are alot of options I would be happy with as long as they'll shoot reliably and consistently. The more we have discussed in this thread, the more I recognize the importance of barrel quick change since there really is concern about burning up a barrel once a year. Plus I get to pretend to be a gunsmith once a year.
Jefferson's mention of the Borden action sent me on a wild googling to learn some more and I really like what I see there. My only concern is fitting one of those enlarged rem700 bigfoots into an MPA matrix chassis - not sure if it can be done but I'd like to find out. This is the platform that best fits me and balances the best. For me, it's probably the most important thing I'm looking for - fit and balance because I am (like a fool) planning to also hunt with it for the extra challenge. My height and reach is otherwise more or less average so near any adjustable stock I've come across can fit well enough for bench or prone. They just lack the balance to some degree or another, or aren't "just right", which really doesn't matter too much off the bench.
After that is the choice of action (and cartridge). After discussing with you all I believe I'm valuing tight tolerances with enough clearance for hunting. Tempting on the impact for its ability to clear alot more rough conditions so if I can ever get into prs one day it would be nice to know I'm set up. Don't love the feel but I can adapt. The terminus or defiance seem to be a good in-between on say an Impact or a Borden. Seems like we're really splitting hairs now. I don't think I'll be unhappy with any choice but now I understand what each of these are bringing to the table much better because of this thread - you guys have all been a great resource here to help me wrap my head around it. Right now I'm leaning towards Borden and Terminus for the comparative lug strength (I'm making assumption that the 3 lug set up is able to resist setback generally as well as a heavier 2-lug?) I am also in love with their oversized integrated recoil lugs.
Barrel I have my heart set on an oversized MTU or Heavy varmint. So that will be a significant wait in itself on a custom profile. I'm also realizing I better order two based on this thread.
