Action "reliability"

Iloverevolvers

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The venerable bolt action is often regarded the "most reliable" long gun action, but let's face it -- it's a pretty slow way to feed and eject rounds and operating the action makes it difficult to keep on target.

I suppose everyone has their own criteria of reliability and how various 22 rifle actions meet it. My criteria of reliablity is as follows, with each item being of equal importance to the rest.

1. The ease of using the action to load the first round into the chamber and the likelihood of the firing system properly striking the rim and firing the round.
2. The likelihood of the casing being ejected after firing and the succesive rounds being successfully loaded into the chamber and fired, etc.
3. The ease with which the operator can stay on target as the action is manipulated during continuous firing.
4. Of course no firearm can fire a bad round, but what the operator has to do with the action after that FTF in order to maintain fire IS an important part of reliability, IMO. How long does it take the operator to "correct" the Failure to Fire, Failure to Feed, or Failure to Eject, get the next round in the chamber and fire it, etc?
5. Speed of firing. The least average total time that it takes to get 15 rounds downrange and on target under possibly difficult environmental conditions such as in near darkness, in the rain, or in the cold.

With the above criteria in mind, I arrange the following actions according to their reliability with the most reliable at the top of the list and the least reliable at the bottom of the list:

1. Pump
2. Semi-auto
3. Lever
4. Bolt w magazine
5. Bolt, single shot
6. Break, single shot

Again, I'm pretty sure reliability means different things to different people. For example, I deliberately chose a 15-round limit and did not mention the ease of reloading, or changing out, a magaine because I might consider that to be irrelevant in a 22 that is going to be used say for home defense. Maybe you would like to get 500 rounds downrange and on target as fast as possible, so the action that most reliably will do that for you may very well be different than the one I have chosen. Maybe all you care about is that you only need one shot once in awhile and you also want an ultra-simple action that you can easily repair and "keep going" yourself. Etc.

What is your criteria of reliability and how do you arrange the various actions according to your particular criteria?
 
IMO you listed in order of sooting your needs. now for "reliability".

1. break single
2. bolt single
3. bolt with mag
4. pump
5. lever
6. semi-auto

thats in order of least to go wrong IMO. semi-autos are going to have the most issues out of all the actions. for my intended use i will go with a bolt action with a mag. by reading your post it think we have two diffrent shooting styles.
 
I agree; I think you have a strange definition of 'reliability.' Perhaps that's not quite the right word you were looking for, because 'reliability' is not subjective. If a gun functions as designed, every single time, it's reliable. Speed of fire and ease of use don't factor in to reliability. Therefore, all else being equal, the fewer moving parts in a gun generally mean more reliable. This adds up to a simple single-shot design like a break action being the most reliable.

For most purposes, I find that my semi auto fits my needs of the moment the best, never mind that it doesn't have the best possible reliability.
 
Interesting post, can't really nail-down what you use your .22s for though. :)

Reliability~I don't think a decent-quality bolt-action can be beat. In fact, a single-shot with a separate cocking knob (like my old Cooey 75) might be the most simple mechanism out there. However, I think a good bolt-action repeater might be about tops for me, as they tend to trump most other actions in the accuracy department. "Reliable" to me means "hit the target where I want to reliably"...so that rules-out all but the best semis. Fast follow-up shots mean nothing on targets, and most hunting scenarios I've found myself in rarely allow a second shot opportunity no matter how fast you can get it down the pipe.
 
Interesting post, can't really nail-down what you use your .22s for though. :)
Fast follow-up shots mean nothing on targets, and most hunting scenarios I've found myself in rarely allow a second shot opportunity no matter how fast you can get it down the pipe.

I agree! I got my son a nice NEF break open 30-30 for him to try deer hunting. He'll have to make the one shot count.

With rimfires I have bolt action repeaters and semi's and the bolt is the most reliable.
 
It looks like the OP has created the hydra he was looking for.
Reliability is one thing - intended use is another.
 
Interesting post, can't really nail-down what you use your .22s for though. :)
...................
I thought I gave a pretty strong hint. Now I'll be specific -- home defense (hd). That's why I arranged the list they way I did.

I don't own a 22 at the moment, but I did own a Colt single shot bolt and a Ruger standard semi-auto pistol in my youth and shot them both a great deal. I'm going to buy a 22 in the near future and I thought that it would be the new take-down Ruger, but I'm not at all sure that I'm going to do that now. That's most of the reason why I started this thread and I probably should have stated all of this in my first post.

I know that there are many who feel that the 22 round is inappropriate for hd, mostly because of its lack of "stopping power", but I think my list of criteria gives some pretty good reasons (ability to fire multiple times while staying on target, for example) why a 22 might be appropriate and I'll also add now that the "report" from a 22 rifle, even multiple reports, in the confined space of a house are not going to damage the hearing of the shooter and the bullet is less likely to penetrate a wall and kill a neighbor, as say discharging a 7.62x39 might.

(The reason I know that the report of a 22 in a house will not permanently damage hearing is that in my youth I used to shoot the Colt in our basement's "range", without hearing protection. I used to work in the power industry and had my hearing tested every couple of years. When I left my job in 1998, my hearing was still perfect. Couldn't shoot the 22 handgun in the basement because it was too loud for comfort. I can only imagine what the report of a big bore anything in the middle of the night is going to do one's hearing.)

I agree with the notion that the "most reliable" action must be the one with the absolute fewest moving parts, because that means that there are fewer parts to fail, either catastrophically by themselves, or a failure to interact with each other properly in a more complex system. By this criteria the bolt or break actions have the fewest moving parts, so, yes, they are the most likely to fire every single time (except for bad rounds, in which case a new round has to be reloaded, which for this action design means precious, perhaps vital, time is lost) and probably the easiest to maintain forever. They're generally the most accurate beyond 50 yards, too.

My username indicates how I feel about handguns. My wife and I used to "carry" snub-nosed 38, 22 and 357 mag (not all at once) when we owned a home for a few years in Florida. We went to the range every week with an ex-CIA friend whom we met at the range ($8 for 50 rnds of reloads). We met all kinds of people at the range and we fired all styles of handguns. From that experince, I would be very reluctant to have a semi-auto anything for hd simply because of the mere possibility of a failure of that second, or maybe even first, shot to actually fire.

Again, this is why I arranged my list the way I did. Sorry for not being more specific. I should have titled the thread "best 22 long gun action for home defense", of something similar.

BTW, I have never owned a pump-action 22, although I fired them many times in my youth at circuses and county fairs -- when people still trusted other people not to use a shooting-range gun inappropriately. Never had a msifire for any reason with those guns and one could stay on target and shoot very rapidly with them. This is another reason why I think that a pump might be very good for hd, as opposed to a semi ........... or a lever, or a bolt, or a break. I just wonder how much maintenance those over-used pumps required to keep them in that top-notch working order.
 
well in that case i would go with a lever for "HD". a henry lever .22. i had one and i could fire extreamly fast and it was nice and short. 34" OAL and holds 12 rounds. you can also cycle on the sholder with ease.
 
Without commenting on firearm use for self defense in Canada, or whether I think a .22lr is a decent choice for it... (my opinion being "bad idea" and "bad choice" respectively :eek:)...

I'd say a semi IS the best choice, one you trust. I had a CGN member polish the bolt/internals on my Marlin 795, and lighten the trigger...and that gun runs like an absolute top. If I thought my life was in danger and...as a last resort...I could grab a gun out of the safe to defend myself and my family, I'd grab the 12gauge. At least I'd likely be alive to be bothered by my ringing ears.
 
The OP sounds like as though he needs a good semi-automatic .22LR :) - and that he "may" have forgotten that a lot of the "older" famous ones were tube-fed.....:redface:

While pump-action .22's are great fun (I have a slew of 'em :yingyang: ,and they seem to be appearing more rapidly on the E&E now at very good prices), the one thing they will not do well is provide you with the ability to go prone and make rapid, repeat shots without significantly shifting your body :(.... a pretty intriguing thing to remember when someone is trying to "get as small as possible", or to just plink while flat on his/her belly. The same "hiccup" exists for a lever-action - but then again, we all probably knew this already and I'm just blabbing softly.

To me, the most "reliable" .22's are the ones (in no set order) that (a) have prominent firing pins and (b) have excellent feed-ramps.....just putting the thought out there.

A Marlin 60 is sleek, plenty accurate and plenty reliable and ;) - in a "Rambo pinch" :D - could still be bump-fired for no apparent reason !.....:evil:
 
While pump-action .22's are great fun (I have a slew of 'em :yingyang: ,and they seem to be appearing more rapidly on the E&E now at very good prices), the one thing they will not do well is provide you with the ability to go prone and make rapid, repeat shots without significantly shifting your body :(.... a pretty intriguing thing to remember when someone is trying to "get as small as possible", or to just plink while flat on his/her belly. The same "hiccup" exists for a lever-action - but then again, we all probably knew this already and I'm just blabbing softly.

I only shoot my lever from the hip, standing. The ground is fer' yeller' bellied lizards.
 
I only shoot my lever from the hip, standing. The ground is fer' yeller' bellied lizards.

Speaking of events from my youth, I seem to remember someone else doing that .....................

h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kdf_gCg_VM

I loved that show! (Of course the fact that he never hit a dam.ed thing was never mentioned.:D)
 
I propose that you will have more failures to fire as a result of faulty .22 ammunition regardless of action type, then you will with a modern center fire semi auto.

If you're shooting to protect your life, your hearing is expendable.

Consciously choosing a .22 for home defense is like disabling 7 cylinders in your pickup.
 
I propose that you will have more failures to fire as a result of faulty .22 ammunition regardless of action type, then you will with a modern center fire semi auto.

If you're shooting to protect your life, your hearing is expendable.

Consciously choosing a .22 for home defense is like disabling 7 cylinders in your pickup.
I think some of the new, "hotter" 22 rounds would make more than adequate hd ammo. First and foremost you've got to hit what you shoot at and it stands to reason that the ease in firing while holding on target is important. If one well-placed shot, or even a miss, doesn't do the trick, probably the next one or more of a series of shots will.

I agree about ammo maybe being a very important factor. The question then becomes, as I mentioned in my original criteria, which action best "deals with" bad rounds? That is, which action gets the bad round out and a good round in as fast as possible -- a bolt? a semi? IMHO, the lever or, because I believe it to be eaiser to hold on target, a pump.

I'm intrigued by the Rem. 572. hickok45 does a nice review of it here:
h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoytTQvgQcE

If I remember correctly, the pumps I fired at the circuses and fairs were a fair bit smaller, and probably much lighter, than that 572.

But beyond my own experience above and watching videos, I really don't know much about the reliability of a pump action versus that of say a bolt. Do pumps ever fail to feed, eject, etc? If so, why?

BTW, apparently I have not included all 22 actions. There's this new Rossi "revolver rifle" available in 6-shot 22 and 22 wmr in the same rifle (interchangeable, I guess). To me, the thing looks more like a pistol with a long barrel and a stock than a rifle. The 6-shot capacity is rather small, but after six, you could probably use a speed-loader, just like any other revolver. 22 mag wouldn't be THAT loud and it would have considerably more stopping power. Something to consider, anyway.
 
I think some of the new, "hotter" 22 rounds would make more than adequate hd ammo. First and foremost you've got to hit what you shoot at and it stands to reason that the ease in firing while holding on target is important. If one well-placed shot, or even a miss, doesn't do the trick, probably the next one or more of a series of shots will.

I agree about ammo maybe being a very important factor. The question then becomes, as I mentioned in my original criteria, which action best "deals with" bad rounds? That is, which action gets the bad round out and a good round in as fast as possible -- a bolt? a semi? IMHO, the lever or, because I believe it to be eaiser to hold on target, a pump.

I'm intrigued by the Rem. 572. hickok45 does a nice review of it here:
h ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoytTQvgQcE

If I remember correctly, the pumps I fired at the circuses and fairs were a fair bit smaller, and probably much lighter, than that 572.

But beyond my own experience above and watching videos, I really don't know much about the reliability of a pump action versus that of say a bolt. Do pumps ever fail to feed, eject, etc? If so, why?

i would have to say bolt or lever. with both your next motion after pulling the trigger in cycle the action and put in a live round. with a semi-auto you manualy cycling the bolt is not usialy the next step. cost time when thinking " am i out or a dud?"
 
Well, hypothetically, considering that you are going to forgo the Canadian storage regulations and have a loaded weapon ready for home defense, relying on a .22 seems a little silly. The chances of you getting multiple shots off from a .22 rifle might be slim, and doesn't have much stopping power. Getting a well placed shot in that extreme adrenaline filled moment is going to be more luck than skill, unless you are well trained in close combat. If the first one doesn't do the job, you might just find yourself in hand to hand and get that .22 shoved where it don't belong. Just get your favorite 12 gauge and be done with it. You seem to be more worried about your hearing more than stopping the attack, like you are going to be in some kind of prolonged fire fight. Just silly. Or maybe watching too much TV. Last thing I'm worried about when shooting to save a life would be my hearing. Even cut the shotgun down, if you want to flaunt the law some more.

If I were under attack, and had the time to retrieve a weapon from my safe, the last thing I would look at would be any of my .22's. I'd grab the 12 guage with the shortest barrel, and the biggest shot I have.

As for the type of action, pump or semi-auto. Do you think police and military use weapons that are not reliable?
 
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Canada's JTF2 and OPP TRU, RCMP ERT and USN SEAL's all want to talk to you about this newfound .22 wisdom of yours. :)

Don't go reinventing the wheel or anything!
 
I thought I gave a pretty strong hint. Now I'll be specific -- home defense (hd).

Quite frankly in a home defence situation most rules go out the door. In respect to my family's safety I'm not concerned about some hearing damage, I'm not concerned about the legal repercussions, I'm not concerned about the person's reasons for committing the violation and I'm probably not going to grab a .22LR because unless the shot is placed correctly it may not stop a desperate intruder. Things will occur in milliseconds and there might not be time to be precise.

My choices for the unfortunate situation you are talking about should that ever occur would have me grabbing for my shorty pump 12 gauge or my 9mm. What follows afterwards is anybody's guess but it won't end well for anyone involved, including myself when my family's safety is at stake.
 
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