Adjust sight or train?

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LastUnder

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Shooting a P226 9mm, averaging a 2.5" grouping at 25 ft, but down and to the left (about 2-3 inches to the 8 o'clock position). Not great, but I'm working on it :)

So my question is...when does one work on better technique, and when does one just adjust their sights? Obviously, one is always working on technique, so I guess my real question is what should trigger a sight adjustment?

Follow on question...anyone know where one could borrow a Sig sight adjustment tool in Edmonton for a few hours?

Thanks
 
Under what conditions of shooting is it down and to the left? If it's under slow fire and you are sure you are holding the sights aligned and on target, then by all means adjust it.
 
Its likely you, that's a classic flinch and everyone does it to some degree. Have someone else shoot the gun, then try shooting from a rest or sandbag. If you're still getting the same results, you might look into adjusting the sights. Personally, such an issue at 25 ft is the user, even if it were the gun I would be less than impressed. 25 ft is rather close and to have a POA/POI shift of 3" is alarming. Also, make sure the sights are centred on the slide before shooting from a rest.

TDC
 
Thanks all, as you can tell I'm new to this, and was/am happy just to get to the point of having a consistent grouping. Looks like I'll watch some videos, read some books, and invest some rounds into stopping my flinch! Appreciate the advice.


TDC said:
Its likely you, that's a classic flinch and everyone does it to some degree. Have someone else shoot the gun, then try shooting from a rest or sandbag. If you're still getting the same results, you might look into adjusting the sights. Personally, such an issue at 25 ft is the user, even if it were the gun I would be less than impressed. 25 ft is rather close and to have a POA/POI shift of 3" is alarming. Also, make sure the sights are centred on the slide before shooting from a rest.

TDC
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LastUnder said:
Thanks all, as you can tell I'm new to this, and was/am happy just to get to the point of having a consistent grouping. Looks like I'll watch some videos, read some books, and invest some rounds into stopping my flinch! Appreciate the advice.
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Also spend some time dry firing your sig. Focus on your front sight and pay attention to the follow through (ie. your sight picture after you break the trigger). Sight picture should be no different from the trigger take up versus after the break.
 
If it's grouping tightly, bottom-left then it sounds like it's the sights.
Elevation you can't adjust easily (short-front blade / tall-rear required), but windage can be adjusted easily and it'd be slight.

I'd sit down at a bench and set up some sandbags to confirm what is going on exactly, then go from there.

By the way, are you shooting 147gr?
I would test out some 124gr ammo to see if that raises the POI, if it does, then I'd stick with 124gr (I suspect this might be the issue) :)
 
For some reason I really have to concentrate when shooting SIG's or I get the same slight down and left grouping. And I know it's not the gun because I've seen the owner shoot it right on POA. And I can as well but I really have to be "in the ZEN zone".

A good drill you can do at home to work on this is the dry fire drill mentioned already. Watch the sight picture for any sort of jump when the hammer drops. Another good trick is to put an empty casing on the top of the slide balanced on end just behind the front sight. Get the gun into position and do a dozen DA dry fires. At the end the casing should still be in the middle of the slide but it may have walked back towards the ejection port. If you find it walks to one side then your grip and trigger pull is tensioning the gun towards the opposite side that the casing is moving towards. This tension results in a small jerk to that side when the hammer falls due to the shock of the hammer impact. If you can dry fire a dozen trigger pulls and the casing doesn't fall off either side then you should be able to do better with live ammo.

The problem with offsetting the sights to compensate is that you'll only be able to shoot YOUR guns. WHen you pick up some other gun you'll be off again or worse if you've gotten used to using a bad technique. So it's far better to fix you than the gun.

.... but have a known really good shooter test it first just in case the sights ARE whacky... :D
 
Put snap cap in gun. Watch sights against a white wall and dry fire taking care to not disturb the sights.

Do this at least 50-100 times a night for a month or two and you should know the trigger well.
 
What bullet weight are you using?? If it's a heavy (147 gr) bullet the sights may not be set for that particular weight.

I'd suggest getting various bullet weights (115gr, 124gr, 147gr) ammo and shooting from a rest to see what your gun likes. Your sights may be regulated for a particular bullet weight.
 
I'm using 124 gr BDX 9mm right now - awesome ammo BTW. Thanks for the advice everyone, going to hit the range tomorrow and try some snapcaps. Dry-fired for a bit tonight and seemed steady enough; now I just have to mimic that on the range tomorrow :) Will also try some different stances, and some supported shooting. More to follow, and thanks again.
 
shredder said:
What bullet weight are you using?? If it's a heavy (147 gr) bullet the sights may not be set for that particular weight.

I'd suggest getting various bullet weights (115gr, 124gr, 147gr) ammo and shooting from a rest to see what your gun likes. Your sights may be regulated for a particular bullet weight.
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Sorry but the bullet weight/brand/style arguments are crap. The differences in performance down range between weights/brand/style of projectile are so minute that I doubt you could detect them, even if the pistol were fired from a ransom rest. For 25 yards and less, the error in POI is almost without a doubt a result of the shooter. Second most likely possibility is improperly installed sights.

TDC
 
TDC said:
Sorry but the bullet weight... arguments are crap.
TDC
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Disagree. In my experience, heavier bullets hit higher. There's crazy math, and arguements about recoil vs bullet position in the barrel all over the interwebz, but I just chat up and maybe learn a little from the more experienced shooters at the club. They say, "Well there's crazy math, but heavier bullets hit higher, re-sight your firearm for different bullet weights."
 
With regards to bullet weights, I also disagree.

The best example is a scoped AR where the difference between bullet weights is very noticeable. Sure, yeah, it will still hit somewhere in the same vicinity, but the POI does change and is very different if you're going for small groups where you are aiming.

I've also experienced that trying a variety of ammo at greater distances does make a noticeable difference; if we are shooting at 7m targets (or less), then sure, all bullets have the same POA-POI.
 
smelly pete said:
Disagree. In my experience, heavier bullets hit higher. There's crazy math, and arguements about recoil vs bullet position in the barrel all over the interwebz, but I just chat up and maybe learn a little from the more experienced shooters at the club. They say, "Well there's crazy math, but heavier bullets hit higher, re-sight your firearm for different bullet weights."
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Experience doesn't necessarily mean they know what they're talking about. You can take this anyway you want, but I've shot(as have others I know) several brands and several weights of projectiles loaded in the same magazine and still managed to print a decent group. As for recoil, the bullet has left the gun before the slide ever begins to move or you begin to experience recoil(see link). Now a really light home load should produce some relatively significant changes in POI. Again, in the aspect of the 25 yard range for handguns, its negligible unless you're into bullseye shooting. Blaming ammo for poor performance is an excuse for poor fundamentals, especially when it comes to action shooting events.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otpFNL3yem4&feature=related)

TDC
 
G37 said:
With regards to bullet weights, I also disagree.

The best example is a scoped AR where the difference between bullet weights is very noticeable. Sure, yeah, it will still hit somewhere in the same vicinity, but the POI does change and is very different if you're going for small groups where you are aiming.

I've also experienced that trying a variety of ammo at greater distances does make a noticeable difference; if we are shooting at 7m targets (or less), then sure, all bullets have the same POA-POI.
Click to expand...

And there is the key to the discussion. AT GREATER DISTANCES. With a rifle it matters, with a handgun, its a non issue.

TDC
 
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