Advantage of 308 over my 223 for f-class ? (numbers in post)

bobfortier

bobfortier

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Hi all

I got 2 similar rifle (both savage Axis action with Savage varmint barrels) One of the rifle is in 223, and the other in 308. As of now the 223 is my f-class rifle, and I am currently working a load in 308 so I can get an advantage over the 223. However this morning I entered data in JBM, and I don't see the advantage anymore.

The velocity with my proven 223 load is an estimate, but close to reality. Getting a chrony is in my future plan. However the other velocity are also estimate. I am working 2 loads with the 308, one with 155 grains sierras, and another with Hornady 178 match bullet.

Here are the 3 loads compared to each other, in a full-value wind scenario of 15 mph. All value represent the correction in MOA from 100 yards up to 600 yards. I do not shoot further than 600 in competition. 80vld are 2800fps, 155 sierra are 2875fps, 178 hornady 2650fps (all 3 loads using CFE223 powder)

100 200 300 400 500 600
80vld 1.0 2.1 3.2 4.5 5.8 7.2
155sie 1.1 2.2 3.5 4.8 6.3 7.9
178hor 1.0 2.0 3.1 4.3 5.6 7.0

The 178 have a slight advantage over the 80, but at what cost ? More powder, more recoil, am I waisting my time and component here ?

Or is there any other factor I am not seeing ?


Thanks for the input
 
More powder, more recoil, am I waisting my time and component here ?

From what you posted seems like it to me.

I would maybe look at a 6.5 they seem to be getter with the wind then the 30's from what I have been reading.
 
6.5's 139's at 2730fps, 5.9, 2950, 5.2, so it says anyway.
I've been having a hard time convincing myself to go from my 260 F-open to a 308 F-TR since I don't shoot very often to start with.
Maybe 6br next :)
 
The further you go, the more MASS matters.

I have campaigned the 223 for the last few years and have very good feel for how this works out to 1000yds. Massive post somewhere in this forum.

If you can read the winds, as accurate as anything. when the air gets bumpy, you will loose more points for the same shooter error vs a larger/heavier bullet.

Same argument as 155 vs 200 308 loads. On paper, not much difference. At distance, the difference is painfully obvious.

If you can read the winds and drive well, it all works. When you miss a condition, the heavier bullet will always plow a straighter path.

Ask Isaac about INERTIA.

If you only competed out to 600m, a well tuned 223/90 will keep up with any 308 offering.

Jerry
 
hometownhero said:
More powder, more recoil, am I waisting my time and component here ?

From what you posted seems like it to me.

I would maybe look at a 6.5 they seem to be getter with the wind then the 30's from what I have been reading.
Click to expand...

By the sounds of it Bob wants to stay with F/TR and stay away from F-Open. The 80 gr bullets out of a .223 have a slight advantage over the 155's. If you had a 1:7 twist and shot 90 gr bullets you would be right up there with the 175 gr SMK's when the wind starts to blow. While the slight advantage goes to the 80's over the 155's, in TR I like to shoot the .308 at long range to give the target markers all the help I can finding the bullet holes in the target.
 
Bob run the numbers with 90gr Bergers with BC of 551 at 2790 fps they will work better at 600 y than the 80s, I use the 80.5 at 2900++ and they work best at 300 & 500. 90 gr after 500 y
I have not tried CFE 223 powders and will not, as all double base powders I have seen used in 223 will give you problems in the heat, pressures can build and primers can blow and you will have elevation problems, and double base powders are hard on the throat of your barrel.
Shooting F class this and last year found talking with other shooters using .308 win Fellows shooting 185gr Bergers will be running same amount of wind on scope as the 223 with 90gr BC on both bullets the same, the 155gr Bergers will have 1 to 1.5 more wind on than the 223 with 90gr.
I like the 223 for the no recoil factor pleasant to shoot,not having to resetting gun after each shot like the .308 win To get the big edge with the .308 you should be trying the 200gr ++ bullets they really work the best. Fellow I shot with at Eastern Championship shooting the heavy's with a 34" barrel at 2750++ had 2.5 wind on scope I had 5 moa ++ with 223 & 90grs.
Only downside is fellow shooting the .308 he had to use his left arm at dinner to handle the fork. mega recoil from the big bullets.
Will you be attending the Quebec Provincials in July at Val Cartier range maybe we can make those .308 shooters aware of the mouse guns are on the range.LOL
Manitou
 
What you did not say is that you probably have a custom chamber throated long to shoot those 90 grains and still have space to put powder in the case to get to those speed. And also maybe a long barrel (more then 26'').

As for Bob, I'm pretty sure he is running stock chamber on a stock barrel.


manitou210 said:
Bob run the numbers with 90gr Bergers with BC of 551 at 2790 fps they will work better at 600 y than the 80s, I use the 80.5 at 2900++ and they work best at 300 & 500. 90 gr after 500 y
I have not tried CFE 223 powders and will not, as all double base powders I have seen used in 223 will give you problems in the heat, pressures can build and primers can blow and you will have elevation problems, and double base powders are hard on the throat of your barrel.
Shooting F class this and last year found talking with other shooters using .308 win Fellows shooting 185gr Bergers will be running same amount of wind on scope as the 223 with 90gr BC on both bullets the same, the 155gr Bergers will have 1 to 1.5 more wind on than the 223 with 90gr.
I like the 223 for the no recoil factor pleasant to shoot,not having to resetting gun after each shot like the .308 win To get the big edge with the .308 you should be trying the 200gr ++ bullets they really work the best. Fellow I shot with at Eastern Championship shooting the heavy's with a 34" barrel at 2750++ had 2.5 wind on scope I had 5 moa ++ with 223 & 90grs.
Only downside is fellow shooting the .308 he had to use his left arm at dinner to handle the fork. mega recoil from the big bullets.
Will you be attending the Quebec Provincials in July at Val Cartier range maybe we can make those .308 shooters aware of the mouse guns are on the range.LOL
Manitou
Click to expand...
 
marzo2 said:
What you did not say is that you probably have a custom chamber throated long to shoot those 90 grains and still have space to put powder in the case to get to those speed. And also maybe a long barrel (more then 26'').

As for Bob, I'm pretty sure he is running stock chamber on a stock barrel.
Click to expand...


Exactly.

I am not looking to shoot with a new caliber. My 223 with the 80 VLD shoot very well. I was just asking if there was an advantage using the 308 at the range I shoot at and with the bullet I listed, over the 80 vld.

For what I see, unless you get the throat bigger, shooting 90 out of a regular, untouched chamber is not worth the trouble, and same goes for 308 with heavies. Both barrel are varmint Savage barrel that I installed on the Axis action (I know, not the first choice of shooters) and they are as the day they left the factory.

I have to do with this right now, money is tight and it is my first year in the f-class game. If I decide to keep the 223 I'll probably sell the 308, and put money toward a new scope (I presently have a Vortex crossfire 8/32 x 50 on it)

Thanks for the input, if you have other opinions, please go ahead !
 
Bob - all three combinations are essentially in the same ballpark, performance-wise (amount of wind drift). So, choose one based on some other factor:
- which one is cheaper?
- which one is more fun to shoot?
- which one is easier to load?
- which one is most accurate, or most reliably/consistently accurate?
- which one do you have more bullets/powder on hand for?
...etc.

All three loads will be blown around by the wind about the same amount (and no, a heavier bullet does not necessarily resist wind drift better than a lighter bullet. Bullet weight is only one part of the system, bullet b.c. is another factor)
 
Manitou, hope you gonna make it in Valcartier, will be a good challenge to meet those 223 accuracy at 600yds ! I've sent you a pm with hotel and registration detail for the event...n excuses ))))

PS. recoil depend A LOT on your shooting technique. If you let the gun come, no problem even with a 215-230 but if you load.....dam......

Bob, we can compare numbers at provincial if you are there and discuss about it with real numbers.

btw...I've just started eating with my right hand again....still written "limbsaver" on my shoulder though.....
 
Ok, thanks to all who responded. I think that right now I will focus on my 223 for F-Class, and keep working on the 308 when I have time. The benefit will be that if I can get good with all the aspects of shooting 223 (reloading, wind drift, etc) than it will only be easier if I switch to another caliber later on.

And I will think seriously about attending the provincials.......
 
Good thread, I have been pondering this question as well, I decided to give the .223 the old college try, and if it doesn't work out I will just throw a varmint stock on it and have a badass coyote killer and build a .308
 
Bob, if the 223 mafia is coming down to provincial, you will learn more in a weekend on 223 than in 5 years. They know this caliber inside out....and obviously, know how to shoot it !
 
I have both a 223 and 308 and I shoot mostly 308 when I'm in the mood for serious long range business. My 223 is a sweetheart of a rifle and a pleasure to shoot, but the numbers speak for themselves. Every year I review the scoring of 223 and 308 shooters at the ORA match and it's the same story. The 223 is up there with everyone else at 300 yards and maybe at 500. As we move out to 600 and back to 1000 yards, even the best 223 shooters slide quietly toward the back of the pack. Even though the BC charts and ballistics software says 223 and 308 are ballistically about the same - it really is not.

I must agree with Jerry that it has something to do with MASS. I think that heavier 308 bullet just stays more stable than the 223 over the greater distances.
 
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