Advice for a newbie's first shotgun: short or long barrel

[HyeProfile]

Hi folks,

Some of my uncles and friends go hunting and I've always wanted to go with them, so I took the plunge and took the non-restricted & restricted firearm safety courses last year...

I bought a Tula TOZ-78 as soon as I got my license. At a $100, it was a great buy (especially for someone in his twenties without a lot of cash), and a 22 target/varmint rifle seemed like the logical first step... I've since put on a Tasco 6-24X32 target scope, and have shot at least 1500 rounds through it at the range in the last year. I'm very happy with it, but as far as hunting goes, it's only good for light game like rabbits and gophers...

My uncles & friends usually hunt pheasants, turkey, and deer. Some also occasionally go for bear... Now I'm fairly new to the sporting arms scene and I need some advice on what firearm to get next, but since they also shoot some trap & skeet and I really enjoy it too (I tried it once with my uncle's Remington 870 pump, and got 18 out of 25 my first time at the stand, it was a blast [no pun intended]), a shotgun seems like the logical next step... Anyhow, one of my uncles loans me a spare 30-06 semi anytime we go hunting for deer, so I should get a shotgun first...

I was thinking of getting a Baikal MP-153 next, as it's the most versatile shotgun for the money... Friends told me that a semi-auto is more practical for hunting than a pump, especially for birds & waterfowl, and that the price difference is worth it. I was also told that I should get a gun which fires anything from 2-3/4 to 3-1/2, for versatility. Since practicality is more important that looks, I was only left with two choices within my budget, the Baikal MP-153, & the Remington 11-87 Super Magnum. Since the MP-153 is less expensive and has amazing reviews, it's the obvious choice... However, I still don't know which size barrel to get (I've seen MP-153 with anything from 24" to 28")... I'm a slim guy, 5'10", but I didn't even feel the recoil on my uncle's Remington 870, so that's not a concern. Alright, so here are some questions that I'd like advice on (sorry for the newbie stuff):

• Apart from the recoil, what are the advantages/disandvantages of longer barrels over shorter barrels???
• What's a BBL barrel??? What types of barrels are there??? What should I look for???
• Will the MP-153 berrels shoot slugs reliably???
• Would it be beneficial to get a rifled barrel so I could potentially shoot slugs???
• Can I shoot shells with a rifled barrel???
• I'm planning on getting a synthetic stock, again, for practicality, any thought on that???
• Where could I get a good deal on it, I don't mind buying a used one as long as I save a buck or two...

Now, as for my next firearm after that (yes, I've been saving up), I'm looking for a bolt-action hunting rifle... I'm a big fan of the Remington 700 models, but I can't settle on a version that fits my needs and my budget. My uncles say that a DM is more practical for hunting, especially for loading in darkness before dawn, so I'm keen on getting a DM version... I also want a fairly rugged/durable/practical/light rifle, so wood stocks are out of the question... Now, that leaves me with the SPS DM version and above, and since my budget is fairly limited, the latter seems like a logical choice, and my local dealer, Le Baron in Montreal, has one for $550, which seams like a great price (http://www.lebaron.ca/pdf_fall_06_07/hunting/rem_700_titanium.pdf) . However, some friends advise me to get the SPS Stainless version. I'm also not sure what caliber to choose. I need some advice:

• I'm leaning towards a .308, or a .30-06... I know .30-06 is more common for hunting and packs a bigger punch, but I'm told .308s are more versatile for smaller game and target shooting... My uncle hunts bear with a .308, so I think it'll do... Any advice on caliber selection???
• What's cheaper, .308 or .30-06 ammunition???
• Le Baron has a 700 SPS Stainless version for $615 ($65 more than the SPS DM), but it has a hinged floorplate. Does anyone know if there's a detachable magazine version of the SPS Stainless??? (the Remington website doesn't help)??? Could a gunsmith change the hinged floorplate for a DM??? How much would it cost???
• Is the difference in price between the regular SPS DM & a DM version the SPS Stainless worth the advantages of a stainless steel barrel???

I've tried to give as much detail about my situation as possible, to better guide your answers... Any help is truly appreciated...

 

[The Hippie]

these answers are just to the best of my knowledge. if i have something wrong, some one please correct me.

Apart from the recoil, what are the advantages/disadvantages of longer barrels over shorter barrels???

Longer barrels often have chokes and swing "smoother". short barrels don’t very often have chokes. other than chokes and personal preference, there is no benefit of having a longer or shorter barrel. other than a shorter one is handier.

What's a BBL barrel??? What types of barrels are there??? What should I look for???

BBL is an abbreviation of the word barrel, often used in mail order catalogues. any time you see the word "BBL" it is referring to the word barrel.

Will the MP-153 barrels shoot slugs reliably???

a smooth bore barrel will shoot slugs reliably, as long as they are the right gauge. and you can shoot slugs though chokes.


Would it be beneficial to get a rifled barrel so I could potentially shoot slugs???

Can I shoot shells with a rifled barrel???

You shoot rifled slugs in a smooth bore, and you can get decent accuracy. you shoot sabot slugs in a rifled barrel, but you can not shoot regular shot in a rifled barrel. so if you get a rifled barrel, it would be a slug only gun.

I'm planning on getting a synthetic stock, again, for practicality, any thought on that???

what every tickles your fancy.

Where could I get a good deal on it, I don't mind buying a used one as long as I save a buck or two...

check the equipment exchange here on CGN.

 

[mr00jimbo]

'm leaning towards a .308, or a .30-06... I know .30-06 is more common for hunting and packs a bigger punch, but I'm told .308s are more versatile for smaller game and target shooting... My uncle hunts bear with a .308, so I think it'll do... Any advice on caliber selection???

It' said .308 is more accurate out at very far ranges. 30-06 is the poster child for versatility, though.

What's cheaper, .308 or .30-06 ammunition???

.308 Milsurp.

# Le Baron has a 700 SPS Stainless version for $615 ($65 more than the SPS DM), but it has a hinged floorplate. Does anyone know if there's a detachable magazine version of the SPS Stainless??? (the Remington website doesn't help)??? Could a gunsmith change the hinged floorplate for a DM??? How much would it cost???

I know there's a DM SPS, but I am not sure if it was a stainless, I think it was a matte finish. But a competent gunsmith could definately change a hinged floorplate to a DM for about 70 bucks I'm told, including a "quick clip"

Is the difference in price between the regular SPS DM & a DM version the SPS Stainless worth the advantages of a stainless steel barrel???

Just personal prerference. They say a black barrel will corrode faster than a SS, but I highly doubt that. Besides, what you gonna do with it, go scuba diving? Or wade through a marsh?

What happened was I was scoping out a Remington 700 SPS myself. I looked at black barrel, stainless barrel, DM, hinged floorplate, everything. I took my dad to look and he totally opened my eyes to the beauty of a wood stock.
It's a lot more "heart felt" if you care for one!

 

[HyeProfile]

these answers are just to the best of my knowledge. if i have something wrong, some one please correct me.

Longer barrels often have chokes and swing "smoother". short barrels don’t very often have chokes. other than chokes and personal preference, there is no benefit of having a longer or shorter barrel. other than a shorter one is handier.

Well the 24" barrels for the MP-153 have chokes just like the 28" barrelled version, but they start off with an XF instead of an F (see thread http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=529243&postcount=21), so people say it comes out to the same thing in terms of accuracy at less than 100 yards, and you rarely shoot farther anyhow... However, I've heard shorter barrels are more versatile than longer ones, especially for Turkey and the like... But I plan on doing a lot of trap & skeet, so is it really worth getting a shorter barrel???

and you can shoot slugs though chokes.

I was told during the firearms safety course to never shoot slugs through a choke since:

1. chokes don't help slug accuracy in any way
2. you can damage your chokes
3. you can potentially blow off the tip of your cannon

Isn't it the case???

 

[HyeProfile]

It' said .308 is more accurate out at very far ranges. 30-06 is the poster child for versatility, though.

What do you mean by "versatility"??? Do you mean it can drop bigger game, that it packs more punch??? Anyhow, the biggest prey I plan to hunt is brown bear, and my uncle goes for bear all the time with his russian .308, so i don't really need a bigger "punch". And since the .308 has more "accurate range", that's +1 for it no???

However, what if I were to move up to moose & caribou later on, I know the 30-06 would have a distinct avantage because it packs a bigger punch, but does anyone here hunt those with a .308 reliably??? Anyhow, I don't plan on hunting these anytime soon and am willing to live with the drawabacks of a less powerful .308 in that situation, as long as it can still kill with a well-placed shot...

.308 Milsurp.

I should've guessed :

I know there's a DM SPS, but I am not sure if it was a stainless, I think it was a matte finish. But a competent gunsmith could definately change a hinged floorplate to a DM for about 70 bucks I'm told, including a "quick clip"

Yes, the SPS DM is what my dealer is selling for CAN$550, but they don't have it in .308 standard, so it will have to be a special order. As for the SPS Stainless with a DM, it seams like remington doesn't have that combo, so a wise friend told me that it's better to just get a regular SPS DM and change the barrel with a stainless one when (and if) it does get corroded/worn/damaged...

Just personal prerference. They say a black barrel will corrode faster than a SS, but I highly doubt that. Besides, what you gonna do with it, go scuba diving? Or wade through a marsh?

Actually, I am a PADI-certified open water scuba diver... But the marsh scenario is more realistic...

What happened was I was scoping out a Remington 700 SPS myself. I looked at black barrel, stainless barrel, DM, hinged floorplate, everything. I took my dad to look and he totally opened my eyes to the beauty of a wood stock.
It's a lot more "heart felt" if you care for one!

I couldn't agree more, but what I really need in my first rifle is practicality... I need a rifle that I can take anywhere for any type of hunt, one that I won't need to maintain and clean that often, a stock that won't get scratched or crack if I drop the rifle or hit it against a rock... You see, I'm the kind of hunter that gets down & dirty, and the last thing I need to worry about is a damaged barrel or a faulty stock... My TOZ-78 has a wood stock and I just love it, but it take work to maintain and I don't want that in my working rifle...

 

[Amphibious]

Actually, I am a PADI-certified open water scuba diver... But the marsh scenario is more realistic...

well then I hope you have your official PADI "Marsh Diver" Certification. and if you want to dive in marshes over 80yrds long you will need your PADI "Advanced Marsh Diver" Cert. we can't forget the PADI "Marsh Identification" certification.

a little PADI humor for those in the know

 

[Grouse Man]

For turkey, pheasant, trap and skeet. Select 12 ga for max versatility, but you don't need the 3-1/2" gun. They are heavier guns, and you really won't ever need to use it. You don't even need 3" for trap or skeet, and you can do well on pheasants and turkeys with a 2-3/4" magnum.

A lightly used 1100 (with screw in chokes) would be a nice gun for all this. 28 inch barrel, wood or synthetic your choice. The 1100 has beautiful fit and pointing characteristics. Another benefit you've got is none of your stated game birds requires steel shot. You could also look for a Browning A-5, a real classic.

I wouldn't consider the Russian gun when there are A-5s out there begging to be used.

 

[prosper]

I'm decidedly un-traditional when it comes to shotguns. The only real benefit of long barrels is a longer sight-plane. But, to me, that's not an advantage, as I prefer a red dot or holo-sight on a lighter, faster and less-clumsy short barrel gun. Some say that long barrels 'swing better' but, unless you're into competition shooting, it makes little difference - you can learn to use either.

As to the 308 vs 30-06 - they're so very similar, you could consider them to be ballistically identical. The differences are so small they can be disregarded. Top, hot loads in the '06 buy you maybe 50 yards, at which time the bullet has slowed down to the same speed as a 308 at the muzzle. Not really enough to worry about. The difference is even slimmer with factory loads. Both are widely available at any end of the earth.
Accuracy-wise, the 308 is said to have an advantage, but I doubt it'd be one you could see in a sporter rifle. Besides, how accurate do you really NEED in a hunting rifle anyway? 2" is MORE than adequate.
The 308 is a 'short action' round, which means that the rifles chambered for it will be marginally shorter and lighter, but again - probably not by enough to make a difference to you unless you're trying to go extreme-lightweight. I prefer the shorter throw of a short action, it just 'feels' better to me, but that's a purely subjective observation.
So - don't let the cartridge be the deciding factor when choosing a rifle.

 

[444shooter]

Best buy for a shotgun is the Remington 870 Express for $319.99 at Wholesale. Just picked one up on the weekend with a 26" barrel and is a real bargain!
Also, go with a 30/06. You won't be sorry. You can get ammo anywhere.

 

[NAA]

Or an Express "combo" where you get the longer barrel and a shorter barrel. Best of both worlds off the same receiver.

 

[Claybuster]

I was told during the firearms safety course to never shoot slugs through a choke since:

1. chokes don't help slug accuracy in any way
2. you can damage your chokes
3. you can potentially blow off the tip of your cannon

Isn't it the case???

I've shot slungs through fixed chokes and choke tubes ranging from cylinder to full without damage to either the choke or the barrel. I've generally found the best accuracy for slugs comes from an improved cylinder choke.

 

[Ahsan Ahmed]

HyeProfile - some points to consider.......

Shotgun - fit is important here....suggest handle one to determine fit/feel if you have anopportunity....the Baikal would be an excellent choice for the type(s) of bird hunting you have in mind.....moreover, a 26" bbl + synthetic stock could be the best compromise for your needs as mentioned

Rifle - .30-06 is an adequate + time honoured calibre Rem 700 is great model (one apparently nice rifle in wood displayed in the EE Forum, as I write), however, budget perspective you may also wish to look at a Savage.

 

[a j cave]

try the fit on lots of shotguns. I have a fit prob with most o/u but the sinergy & 525 fit way better than the citori, I love my SxS & my wifes 1100 fit well.also the Moss.930 is great. your shooting will be better with a tool that fits. as for rifle cal. a moose at 200yd would not be able to tell the difference in any of the med. to large cal. 7x57 & up. this is mho only I hope that its food for thought A J

 

[pharaoh2]

My advice to you is to purchase your two guns that your comfortable with the most. That being said, a pump is no less practical for hunting than an autoloader. In fact, I strongly feel they are safer, esspecially with new guys. A pump gives you the versitilaty of shooting the lightest target loads, up to full power hunting loads with no problems. A semi on the other hand, usually doesn't like lite loads. There are a few, but in your budget, probably not. I would suggest a Remington 870, simply because it is very affordable and usually quite reliable. A 26-28" barrel will handle all your feathery hunting needs, though I'm partial to shorter barrels myself for certain areas I hunt.

As for a rifle, this is a very personal matter. A rifle has to be shot alot to make you comfortable with it. Once you get to that level, you will shoot it well. You said you can borrow a semi 30-06. I know these are very popular out East. The cover can be thick, and repeat shots may be nessecary. Still, I wouldn't advise a newbie to buy an automatic. It's just a personal beef of mine, and I'm a safety freak when I'm hunting with other people. Have you considered a lever action? They were made to hunt the thick stuff, John Wayne just didn't know it. A tube fed Marlin in 30-30, .44 mag or even the .444's up to the .450 would be perfect in the heavy stuff. A browning blr would be a better choice though. You said you want a clip mag. The blr has it. But that is another area I'm not comfortable with. Clips can be lost. They can be forgotton at home, or in the car. A stray branch can trigger the release and drop it along the trail. Ditto for floorplates. I've had it happen, and lost a magazine full of cartridges in the snow. I like blind magazines best, but that's just my opinion, and not what your looking for. I would start by suggesting the Stevens rifle, but there's that pesky blind mag again. Next would be your SPS rifles. I feel they are a very good buy, and a good rifle. The stainless is a feature I don't like as well. It is practical, but it just doesn't look right in my eyes. I'm starting to warm up to plastic handles, but even I have to draw the line somewhere.

Cartridge selection is also a personal choice. Don't buy into the long range shooting/.308-Stopping power/30-06 debate. They are both suitable for the task at hand. But remember, you have a plethora of cartridges to choose from. Choose wisely. For starters, the .243 would be all the rifle you would ever need for deer hunting. Easy to shoot, and lite on recoil, you will shoot it well. The .25-06 is a hot rod cartridge, great for plains hunting, and will certainly work out there too. The 6.5x55 or .260 rem are capable of moose, given good shot placement. The 7x57 and 7mm-08 are too, capable of big game, are easy to shoot and will both serve you well. The .270 is one of my favorites, as they just do their job well. Then you have the .30 calibers. The .308 and .30-06 are both good enough for any game you will ever hunt, at any responsable range. You could go bigger, but I feel you will never need it. The only other consideration I will recommend would be a good quality scope. I don't give a rats a$$ about clarity, light transmission or exit puils. I like reliability. Buy a scope that will handle the odd knock and still hold zero. Leupolds are famous for this, but I've dumped Bushnells and never had to rezero. Buy wisely, and you will have gear that will last you a long time. Good luck with your choices.

 

[todbartell]

I wouldnt over think the barrel issue too much. Buy what feels best to you. Personally, for a waterfowl gun, I find 28" a good happy medium. Long enough to swing well and short enough it doesnt get hung up in everything when in a blind

 

[catnthehatt]

I wouldnt over think the barrel issue too much. Buy what feels best to you. Personally, for a waterfowl gun, I find 28" a good happy medium. Long enough to swing well and short enough it doesnt get hung up in everything when in a blind

Ditto, a 28" will do everything you want to do.
Modified choke will do it all, also.
I shoot skeet every now and then with a Browning Superposed with f/m chokes, with non sweat.
Cat

 

[SuperCub]

Ditto, a 28" will do everything you want to do.
Modified choke will do it all, also.
I shoot skeet every now and then with a Browning Superposed with f/m chokes, with non sweat.
Cat

28" bbls on an O/U gives about the same OAL length as 26" bbl on a pumpgun.

My 870 with 26" bbl is perfect for all waterfowling and is OK for upland as well, but shorter is better for grouse and woodcock.

I recommend a 26" 870 and a 30/06 SPS, in fact I own both these guns myself.



.

 

[Win/64]

I'm decidedly un-traditional when it comes to shotguns. The only real benefit of long barrels is a longer sight-plane. But, to me, that's not an advantage, as I prefer a red dot or holo-sight on a lighter, faster and less-clumsy short barrel gun. Some say that long barrels 'swing better' but, unless you're into competition shooting, it makes little difference - you can learn to use either.

Longer sight-plain is not the only benifit of a longer barrel shotgun. Longer barrels swing better and are "Less" clumsy than a short barreled gun and most often lighter than a short barrel gun. My 870 12 ga. 23" barrel is much heavier than my 16 ga SXS with 28" barrels or my O/U 12 ga with 28" barrels.

 

[Calum]

I'm decidedly un-traditional when it comes to shotguns. The only real benefit of long barrels is a longer sight-plane. But, to me, that's not an advantage, as I prefer a red dot or holo-sight on a lighter, faster and less-clumsy short barrel gun. Some say that long barrels 'swing better' but, unless you're into competition shooting, it makes little difference - you can learn to use either.

Bingo, it didn't take long for guys at our ranges to figure out how to hit the clays with my 14" norinco.
And now the red dot I just put on it does all the indexing I need.
I just have to get some chokes installed and I'm good to go for hunting season.

So whatever floats your boat, as you will get used to it in time.

Also IMHO more important then barrel length is how the stock fits you...Most off the shelf shotguns are built for a mythical body type.

 

[the_big_mike]

get a 12 gauge Ithaca m37... beautiful shotgun... the longest running shotgun in production fyi.

And take a look at the Tikka... great price, great accuracy.