Advice for new precision rifle shooters
- Thread starter Tomochan
- Start date
Tomochan
Excellent post and one that should be stickied.
One suggestion about the scopes and their issues. Might I suggest that you break up the shooting disapplines. For example, F-class shooting use scopes that are at the high range of power. I routinely use my scopes at 55 to 60 power on good days and long distances, 40 power for normal days and then back off to 24 power for real bad mirage conditions. I understand for tactical shooting a 6 x 24 or 8 x 32 is ideal, and benchrest can use upwards of 36 or 45 power.
FFP is not used in F-class shooting because we shoot known distances. Also target scopes built like this have only become widely available in recent years and are still somewhat of a fad. In hunting scopes, FFP was only available in expensive european scopes in years past and was considered a liability.
I think if this was incorporated into your post it would clear up a lot of misconceptions.
However, I am fully behind the idea that the rifle and caliber are not as important as the glass for all disapplines including hunting.
Steve
Excellent post and one that should be stickied.
One suggestion about the scopes and their issues. Might I suggest that you break up the shooting disapplines. For example, F-class shooting use scopes that are at the high range of power. I routinely use my scopes at 55 to 60 power on good days and long distances, 40 power for normal days and then back off to 24 power for real bad mirage conditions. I understand for tactical shooting a 6 x 24 or 8 x 32 is ideal, and benchrest can use upwards of 36 or 45 power.
FFP is not used in F-class shooting because we shoot known distances. Also target scopes built like this have only become widely available in recent years and are still somewhat of a fad. In hunting scopes, FFP was only available in expensive european scopes in years past and was considered a liability.
I think if this was incorporated into your post it would clear up a lot of misconceptions.
However, I am fully behind the idea that the rifle and caliber are not as important as the glass for all disapplines including hunting.
Steve
Thanks Steve - I edited the original post to include your well considered opinions. Thanks for the contribution - that was the purpose of the article: to get more experienced opinions and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
Hi Tomachan
I think that will really help the new shooter and you might want to add this also.
Match scope pricing seems to fall within these three general price ranges. Sightron/Vortex/Bushnell are at about the $1100 level, Nightforce is at the $2100 level and S&B/March are at the $3500 level. Different options and power vary the pricing somewhat but these will give a good price estimate for the new shooter. Optic quality doesn't seem to be much different between the Sightron and Nightforce levels however the Nightforce are built much tougher. S&B/March levels are another whole ballgame. Steve
I think that will really help the new shooter and you might want to add this also.
Match scope pricing seems to fall within these three general price ranges. Sightron/Vortex/Bushnell are at about the $1100 level, Nightforce is at the $2100 level and S&B/March are at the $3500 level. Different options and power vary the pricing somewhat but these will give a good price estimate for the new shooter. Optic quality doesn't seem to be much different between the Sightron and Nightforce levels however the Nightforce are built much tougher. S&B/March levels are another whole ballgame. Steve
Great question and I was going to put my thoughts down in the first post but didn't want to make it too long.
Rings - attaching a $1000 + scope to a $2000+ rifle using $20 rings off ebay just doesn't make sense to me. But, for that matter I don't see the need to go to MK 4 Tactical of Nighforce either in every case but by all means do that if you can afford to. The rings I use a lot are TPS Steel 30mm they are about $100 and I am very satisfied with them. I also have some Burris XTR's and a Richard Near Alphamount and like both of those also.
I always recommend a Picatinny-type rail and have rails by ATRS, Richard Near, some others, both custom manufactured and made commercially by EGW and others - all work well. I prefer to have at least 20MOA ( ie canted or sloped ) rails as that allows for more scope adjustment out to longer ranges. Having said that, my 20" TRG came with a 0MOA ( no cant ) rail and using a NF NXS 8-32-56 with 65MOA internal I was able to make hits out to 600m with room to spare. Get 20MOA rails if you can but for most distances no need to cry if you have 0MOA,
Re spotting scopes - for a long time I managed with a cheap one and relied upon good riflescopes. I say now that was a mistake. This summer I tried Leupold, Votrex and Pentax spotters and settled on the Pentax 80 ED. Cameraland (site sponsor) hooked me up and I think that spotter is the best value for money out there.
Other stuff I've found useful - a bag that opens into a mat ( Eagle, Condor and Voodo Tactical all make good bags ); a rear bag ( budget = sock filled with sand. Not worried about $ = commercially available ); a good back pack/range bag; a good notebook ( water resistant paper ) and ballistic tables ( or App for I-phone or Android ). I could go on but others will surely add to this list.
Hi Tomochan
Could you tell me the Barrel contour of your fully custom 'Tactical' precision rifle built on a Stiller action or one you might suggest if you were to do it over. I am planing a build around a 260 or 308 ( as Longshot )has suggested for a Tactical caliber. I already have a custom 6BR that I use for F-class and am growing more interested in the Dark side each day.
Cheers
Could you tell me the Barrel contour of your fully custom 'Tactical' precision rifle built on a Stiller action or one you might suggest if you were to do it over. I am planing a build around a 260 or 308 ( as Longshot )has suggested for a Tactical caliber. I already have a custom 6BR that I use for F-class and am growing more interested in the Dark side each day.
Cheers
M40/M24 is the standard contour for tactical builds. MTU will give you more barrel options thought if you're bedding the shank area. I would go with that contour because it give you the option of using lighter Palma barrels if you desire.
Word of advice: if you're using a Remington action, have the recoil lug pinned. Makes barrels swapping easier. You can get a vice and action wrench for under $100.
Word of advice: if you're using a Remington action, have the recoil lug pinned. Makes barrels swapping easier. You can get a vice and action wrench for under $100.
Hi Tomochan
Could you tell me the Barrel contour of your fully custom 'Tactical' precision rifle built on a Stiller action or one you might suggest if you were to do it over. I am planing a build around a 260 or 308 ( as Longshot )has suggested for a Tactical caliber. I already have a custom 6BR that I use for F-class and am growing more interested in the Dark side each day.
Cheers
I always like the look of the USMC M40 and that is the barrel profile I went with and one I would suggest.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Great info Tomochan
Other optics options include, bases from Farrell and Burris XTB - you dont need a 1pc base. You just need solid bases that will not loosen with use.
for rings, Burris Sig ZEE rings are very popular. well made steel rings w/ eccentric inserts to let you shim your scope.
depending on the discipline and stock shape and scope used, there are now a range of base/ring combos available to fit any application. Mix and match for the best utility.
I have articles on my website from rifle build up, to load tuning, to optics set up. should help get you started.
also, books like the Applied Ballistics by Bryan Litz can give you alot of info on external ballistics. Useful for getting the most out of your loading options.
For spotters, the Pentax line up is some of the best value you can get. Their eyepieces are simply superb. I am presently playing with a Vortex w/ variable eyepiece just to see if I can find a useable product for less money.
So far, not bad.
I think the big thing for new shooters to understand is there is no one right answer for all the various disciplines bundled into precision shooting.
Start with the discipline you want to play in, decide how precise you need to be vs the real world needs to complete your tasks, review your budget and useage costs, get started.
In general, improving true precision every 1/4 min gets substantially more expensive and more demanding. If 1/2 min is suitable, that can be readily met with a nominal budget. If shooting in the 0's is needed, that will up the costs many fold.
Best thing any shooter can do is get out there and start shooting. All the theory in the world doesn't mean a thing until you start launching lead.
Waiting for that perfect answer usually means a good reason to delay participation. Experience is the best teacher of all and if you start with fairly generic stuff, there is little financial risk if you want to change.
Learning occurs everyday for the rest of your shooting endeavors so you may as well get out there and start.
Jerry
Hello Steve
Can you please elaborate on the differences between the "mid-level" optics
being the Nightforce/Sightron, and the "new high-end" optics March/Schmidt
and Bender offerings?
Can a F-Class shooter acutally use the 10X80X 56 magnification on the March?
Can you please elaborate on the differences between the "mid-level" optics
being the Nightforce/Sightron, and the "new high-end" optics March/Schmidt
and Bender offerings?
Can a F-Class shooter acutally use the 10X80X 56 magnification on the March?
Hi Lyle
From my eyes and the reviews I have read from N.A. and overseas it is considered that the optics in the Sightron and Nightforce are about the same. The coatings between them give slight differences but the resolution are very similar. I actually prefer the Sightron myself over the Nightforce but that is just my eyes. I also prefer the Sightrons focus adjustment system over the Nightforce but I believe that is a Chevy vs Ford argument.
The S&B and March use ED glass which is the next step well above the others. This allows you to see the target better in heavy mirage conditions. I routinely shoot in mirage conditions with the scope set at 40 power (which in my favourite power for other reasons) where I could not using the Sightron.
Normally I shoot at 40 power throughout a match right out to 900 meters. Sometimes I switch to 55 power (if possible) for 900 meters. The only reason I do this is to make the target "appear" the same as the previous ranges. If the mirage or wind is bad then I stay at 40.
There are 2 March scopes for F-Class. A 10 x 60 x 52 and an 8 x 80 x 56. The first has a 30mm tube while the second has a 34mm tube. I am told by a friend who has one that shooting at 80 power is the same as shooting with the smaller at 60 for clarity.
I have looked through S&B and find them similar to the March scopes but I have not spent a lot of time using them.
Having said all the previous, I would not consider buying the March or S&B strickly for the optic quality because I don't think it means all that much. I prefer the March for a number of other features like the scope size, eye relief, reticle, zero stop and the tactical turret markings.
In conclusion, in certain conditions you can use the higher powers very effectively. Will it buy you more points? Probably not! However, the ED glass does help in heavy mirage conditions and will keep you in the game.
Steve
From my eyes and the reviews I have read from N.A. and overseas it is considered that the optics in the Sightron and Nightforce are about the same. The coatings between them give slight differences but the resolution are very similar. I actually prefer the Sightron myself over the Nightforce but that is just my eyes. I also prefer the Sightrons focus adjustment system over the Nightforce but I believe that is a Chevy vs Ford argument.
The S&B and March use ED glass which is the next step well above the others. This allows you to see the target better in heavy mirage conditions. I routinely shoot in mirage conditions with the scope set at 40 power (which in my favourite power for other reasons) where I could not using the Sightron.
Normally I shoot at 40 power throughout a match right out to 900 meters. Sometimes I switch to 55 power (if possible) for 900 meters. The only reason I do this is to make the target "appear" the same as the previous ranges. If the mirage or wind is bad then I stay at 40.
There are 2 March scopes for F-Class. A 10 x 60 x 52 and an 8 x 80 x 56. The first has a 30mm tube while the second has a 34mm tube. I am told by a friend who has one that shooting at 80 power is the same as shooting with the smaller at 60 for clarity.
I have looked through S&B and find them similar to the March scopes but I have not spent a lot of time using them.
Having said all the previous, I would not consider buying the March or S&B strickly for the optic quality because I don't think it means all that much. I prefer the March for a number of other features like the scope size, eye relief, reticle, zero stop and the tactical turret markings.
In conclusion, in certain conditions you can use the higher powers very effectively. Will it buy you more points? Probably not! However, the ED glass does help in heavy mirage conditions and will keep you in the game.
Steve
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
One very important thing to consider when choosing a scope for F class shooting is the ability to SEE the mirage.
I feel very strongly that my scores have risen tons since going to the Sightron because I can see the mirage AND the target well.
This is something really important to distinguish. Very common in lower quality glass (not necessarily less money) to see mirage - too much mirage. The target simply washes out in a blurry burpling mess. You can't aim precisely cause you simply cant see the target with any degree of certainty.
On the other extreme, top tier glass and coatings can be set to 'tune' out mirage. You simply see through it making the target far more clear, less wobbly, allowing for extremely precise aim. A highly desired feature in BR type shooting.
To me, either extreme is bad. I want - more accurately - NEED to see the mirage as a wind indicator. Flags can lie or be slow to respond to switches but the mirage usually tells what the air is doing more accurately and certainly a whole lot faster.
BUT you must still be able to see the target to aim precisely.
Here I feel the Sightrons excel. The 10-50X60's I use let me see BOTH very well. Certainly better then a lot of big name brand scopes. AND the vastly superior side focus lets you dial into the air at various distance quickly and repeatably so you can actually track the air at several points along the bullets path.... NEAT.
The only other scope I have used that was superior was a lower mag S&B. Whatever magic was in that scope has left me lusting for more. The most sublime image I have had the pleasure of seeing to date. Now if their new super high mag offers similar optics, I might have to sell my left kidney to get one.
For those that due to budget or optics choice can't see the mirage or see too much, you can adjust to the target and use a spotting scope as your second set of eyes. BUT the risk is the time lag from rolling off the spotter and onto the rifle. Not to mention additional costs.
I have scored and watched some very talented shooters drop points doing just this. Air can sometimes change in seconds.
YMMV.
Jerry
I feel very strongly that my scores have risen tons since going to the Sightron because I can see the mirage AND the target well.
This is something really important to distinguish. Very common in lower quality glass (not necessarily less money) to see mirage - too much mirage. The target simply washes out in a blurry burpling mess. You can't aim precisely cause you simply cant see the target with any degree of certainty.
On the other extreme, top tier glass and coatings can be set to 'tune' out mirage. You simply see through it making the target far more clear, less wobbly, allowing for extremely precise aim. A highly desired feature in BR type shooting.
To me, either extreme is bad. I want - more accurately - NEED to see the mirage as a wind indicator. Flags can lie or be slow to respond to switches but the mirage usually tells what the air is doing more accurately and certainly a whole lot faster.
BUT you must still be able to see the target to aim precisely.
Here I feel the Sightrons excel. The 10-50X60's I use let me see BOTH very well. Certainly better then a lot of big name brand scopes. AND the vastly superior side focus lets you dial into the air at various distance quickly and repeatably so you can actually track the air at several points along the bullets path.... NEAT.
The only other scope I have used that was superior was a lower mag S&B. Whatever magic was in that scope has left me lusting for more. The most sublime image I have had the pleasure of seeing to date. Now if their new super high mag offers similar optics, I might have to sell my left kidney to get one.
For those that due to budget or optics choice can't see the mirage or see too much, you can adjust to the target and use a spotting scope as your second set of eyes. BUT the risk is the time lag from rolling off the spotter and onto the rifle. Not to mention additional costs.
I have scored and watched some very talented shooters drop points doing just this. Air can sometimes change in seconds.
YMMV.
Jerry
Hi Lyle
I use the MTL-1 reticle because at 40 power the divisions are 1 MOA for windage and elevation. This allows me to measure the drift and correlate it back to the wind drift tables and wind meter I use. This is why I shoot mostly at 40 power unless dead calm or heavy mirage. I found for me this reticle is the best way to go and my scores really improved once I was using this system.
I am staying with the 10 x 60 x 52 because I like the total package of features. The 8 x 80 maybe "better" but I like these scopes and don't think there is much more improvement to be gained.
I can see the mirage fine BTW. However, in heacy conditions I can see the target better whereas the Sightrons and Nightforces are just seeing a blur with no fixed aiming point. I haven't been in conditions yet where I couldn't see the aiming point with the March's where the Sightron would have to be dialed down to see the same thing. By dialing down you lose the precision somewhat. Scores maybe the same but the tightness of the shot may not.
Steve
I use the MTL-1 reticle because at 40 power the divisions are 1 MOA for windage and elevation. This allows me to measure the drift and correlate it back to the wind drift tables and wind meter I use. This is why I shoot mostly at 40 power unless dead calm or heavy mirage. I found for me this reticle is the best way to go and my scores really improved once I was using this system.
I am staying with the 10 x 60 x 52 because I like the total package of features. The 8 x 80 maybe "better" but I like these scopes and don't think there is much more improvement to be gained.
I can see the mirage fine BTW. However, in heacy conditions I can see the target better whereas the Sightrons and Nightforces are just seeing a blur with no fixed aiming point. I haven't been in conditions yet where I couldn't see the aiming point with the March's where the Sightron would have to be dialed down to see the same thing. By dialing down you lose the precision somewhat. Scores maybe the same but the tightness of the shot may not.
Steve
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I think SteveB and Tomochan need to send me their respective March and S&B for some intensive testing.
Jerry
Jerry
I think SteveB and Tomochan need to send me their respective March and S&B for some intensive testing.
Jerry
You a funny guy Jerry
Dont want you to fall outta love with Sightron though!Bob, Steve and Jerry, thank you all, for your great input, and advice....
Now would someone buy all 4 scopes: Sightron, Nightforce, March and
Schmidt and Bender, and do a side by side comparison for us poor folks....
Inquiring minds want to know?
Now would someone buy all 4 scopes: Sightron, Nightforce, March and
Schmidt and Bender, and do a side by side comparison for us poor folks....
Inquiring minds want to know?
