Affordable Side by Side for Goose Hunting

Yes Chivirac, Home3 is right. The Baikal guns have always been tough and nowadays they come equipped with screw-in chokes, factory rubber recoil pad and sling swivels, you won't find a better sxs for the money these days.
 
chivirac said:
Grouse Man, isn't the search for the impossible all the more rewarding if you actually find what you're looking for?
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While the expectation may be fair, however, I'm afraid it's just not practical. :) The recommendation for a Baikal MP-43 is a good approach to your requirement question.
 
Ahsan Ahmed said:
While the expectation may be fair, however, I'm afraid it's just not practical. :) The recommendation for a Baikal MP-43 is a good approach to your requirement question.
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It all depends on what the op wants to settle for. If going the Baikal route, there are all kinds of used ones for under $400.00. Same with some older spanish guns and italian guns and Hungarian Fegs. Heck, you can pick up JP Sauers , and Simsons for around $450.00 that are not in bad shape. Open up the chokes and all will do for hunting. Looking at the options I just listed, I would look for a nice Feg or Sauer over the Baikal. I have owned all of the guns I mentioned, and while the Baikals are sturdy, it was the crudest of the bunch. Fegs in quite nice condition can be had for $350.00 and are well built. I opened the chokes on a Feg I had and used it for 3 years on waterfowl until somebody wanted to buy it.
On the CZ thing, I owned one of those as well and much preferred it over the Baikal.
 
I bought my baikal SxS (double trigger, fixed full/mod choke) at trade ex for $208 shipped. that would leave you with $200 to have it modified for steel shot
kennymo said:
Tradeex has a selection of used doubles. Some even have modified/modified barrels that might be suitable for what you're looking for.
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Good on you Chivirac! I'd love to see the faces on the whack 'em and stack 'em crowd when you show up with your SxS. They'd have us believe that modern waterfowl cannot be effectively hunted with anything other than a synthetic stocked, all camo, semi-auto. Its gotten to the point where even pump-actions are considered "grandpa's duck gun".
 
Had you not mention you want to shot steel shots with it, I would have definitely urged you to consider one of the many treasures that Trade Ex carries at low prices. I own a Spanish Laurona (not from Trad Ex) and I can't say enough about it. A beautiful and well made gun, even compare to my Italian 20GA Franchi. I understand Trade Ex's collection of SxS includes Belgians, Husqvarnas, a variety of spanish, Shul (East-German) Fegs (Hungarian)...etc. All good enough to make you to look for an excuse to take them out.

I only shoot steel with my 870 and 400.
 
Once again, inundated with great suggestions!

Ninepointer, your support is much appreciated, as is your Kipling quote!

Safehunter, your suggestion was met with a soft and long whistle of appreciation, you folks think it's a good starter? Also, forgive me for not knowing as much as I should about chokes and such, being totally new to this but would that Baikal be ready to go then?

Now thinking on Home3's statement and the possibility of using tungsten or othe non-toxic shot for my hunting (I plan to only go out once or twice a year for actual hunting and just shoot lead for fun) are there any tradeex guns you folks would recommend? The cheaper is of course the better! Or should I just go for that Baikal?

I see a whole bunch of lovely Spanish beauties such as this one http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/14474-spanish-amazon-sxs-12ga but don't know much about the brand/make and am wondering if a full choke would be alright for goose using heavy non-toxic shot.

Edit: I don't want anyone to feel they need to wade through the tradeex inventory for me so I've thrown a few of the cheaper ones up here:
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/jp-sauer-sohn-sxs-12ga-28
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/jp-sauer-sohn-sxs-12ga-2
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/geco-sxs-12ga-2
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/fand-handquet-toreador-sxs-12ga
 
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Keep in mind non-toxic shot is very expensive. Kent Tungsten Matrix is about $35-45 a box of 10 rounds. Personally, I think that a new modern Baikal isn't a bad suggestion.
 
Would you consider the baikal posted above, good enough? I'd rather by used than new, student budget and all.

As for the Tungsten, as I said, I wouldn't be shooting it very often only once or twice a year. Of course something that shoots steel is optimal (though mind you I've also read that you don't wanna bite into it)
 
I use a twelve pump (win 2200) with removable chokes. I also love the doubles but as cash is short I'm into utility more. That being said, I've shopped around for lots of SxS and keep coming back to the baikal. Hammerless, twin triggers, extractors, built like a tank. My short list also includes the Stevens 311, but they seem to have a lot of stock cracks and don't have the same value as the Baikals, perhaps as there is more of a collector market. I also like the Stoeger coach guns but the consensus says they are not as well built as Baikals, and usually cost more.

There is lots of confusing info using steel shot on full chokes. If you are going to pony up for the exotics tungsten/bismuth then blaze away. But $4 a round is steep if you can find it. Reaming a full choke for $40 or so is a good option. You may be able to use smaller steel shot, ie 4 or smaller, which seems to be more fluid, but your range is going to be shorter and the pattern may have goose sized holes in it, not to mention the risk of barrel bulges or worse. I'd call Tradeex and see what they have to say. Even IM may be too tight. I'd also ask a qualified gunsmith.

I also love the idea of hunting with doubles but in the end I went with a more modern pump. You can't beat their combination of value and utility. I do hunt grouse with a mod choked single 20 gauge baikal, but with lead and if I don't connect with the first shot then a second isn't going to make any difference. I can also tell you that if you are hiking, those doubles get heavy - not really an issue sitting in a blind, but you'll want to branch out into upland.
 
chivirac said:
Would you consider the baikal posted above, good enough? I'd rather by used than new, student budget and all.

As for the Tungsten, as I said, I wouldn't be shooting it very often only once or twice a year. Of course something that shoots steel is optimal (though mind you I've also read that you don't wanna bite into it)
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You might only go twice a year but that can still be costly with non toxic shot. I usually go through at least a box of shells (25 rounds) if anythings flying. (I know, poor shot). If non toxic is roughly $40.00 for 10 shells, that's at least $90.00 for shells if I used non toxic. I buy Winchester Super X for $14.00 per box of 25. That's $76.00 difference in one outing and that's only shooting one box. It's easy to shoot more. So, you are spending way more in the first few outings just by the theory of using non toxic shot. You are far better off basing your gun decidion on shooting steel shot if you are on a budget.
 
Another thing to consider, buying the gun itself is the least expensive part of owning it. I would buy an older Baikal as they are build well, but I wouldn't shoot steel through it unless it was at least 'Modified' or more open. Even then you are risking damage to the gun. I know guys who shoot steel through older guns and they just use #4 shot which as safehunter said is more 'fluid'. Shooting will need to be a lot closer though.

For the roughly tax in price of a modern Baikal, I'd just save a bit longer and buy that. That is if you want one and it fits you. Ultimately gun fit is most important, and you can handle one and know it won't shoot well for you because it doesn't fit. You might buy a less expensive used one and find you need to spend $100 on a stock fitting plus $60 per bore to ream it to a more open choke. Might as well buy the correct gun from the beginning.
 
Would it be perhaps feasible to fire lead for fun on the used baikal posted and swap to size 4 steel for hunting the one or two days a year I use it? That would limit the barrel damage no? And save the money from tungsten? I guess I'd need to have the choke removed to fire steel is what you're saying Safehunter? I spoke to the folks over at Tradeex and they won't say boo on the subject aside from telling me that guns built for lead should be used for lead, liability issues I suppose!

Gunsaholic: point made!

Cintax: I'm a total newbie so right now I'm just looking for something cheap and aesthetically pleasing that lets me join some friends and blaze away every so often. The emphasis on cheapness is partially due to the fact that I don't know how much I'll necessarily love the sport or how often I'll able to hoof it out to the boonies from the city (I'm carless). So for that it isn't really a question of saving for the better gun but being sure I want to spend that much on one. I'm really excited about tradeex's ~200 section because it seems perfect for getting a gun that I can try out (I'd prefer not to borrow, I have this fear of damaging someone's baby!). With this said, I don't really need to shoot steel, and as many have pointed out I was a bit optimistic on that front, I could always buy something that shoots steel later if I find myself to be a big fan and in any case, I might go for something more utilitarian then. So in this case, for now, fit is not a huge issue, nor is heft.

On that note, if I drop the steel/tungsten/etc. completely, say "screw it!" and just go for lead, would you still suggest the baikal or would one of those Amazon/Toreador/Sauer and Sohn/Geco do fine? I'm looking for the cheapest side by side that is goose-ready, lead is now an option!

Edit: Just realized that lead cannot be used for hunting migratory birds in Canada?
 
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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about regarding steel damaging the older gun. If the SxS has thick enough walls and the chokes are open, the steel is not going to damage them. Pretty much all the Sauers (such as on tradeex) , Fegs, Stevens, Ithaca NID, Ithaca Nitro Special, etc have plenty enough barrel wall thickness. I wouldn't shoot steel out of older english and maybe french guns as many of those have thin walls and are built light for carrying for upland game. This is being made more complicated than it needs to be. If you find an older gun that fits you at a decent price, such as the many brands mentioned, then go for it if you are after a SxS on a budget. For the amount of shooting you are talking about, they will last until the cows come home.
 
chivirac said:
So gunsaholic, you think that a Sauer or Baikal with the choke off would be fine for steel (I assume you stay around 4 then as earlier mentioned?). I'm assuming I don't want to try squeezing steel through a full choke
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No, you do not want full choke. If you are looking at tradeexguns, you may find one that already has chokes that are not full. But if not, if the gun is cheap enough, it's no big deal to open them up. I shot number 2 steel shot through every gun I have hunted waterfowl with, including sxS's. I have seen other SxS's as well as older pumps and automatics that have been used for steel shot since it came out. None I have seen were buggered from steel shot. Oops, tell a lie. I saw one older Mossberg 500 that was cracked at the end of the barrel. It was a full choke gun that had not been opened up and it wasn't sure if it was from steel shot or the bead was sticking too far into the barrel. Of the Sauer or Baikal, I'd take the Sauer just because I think it's a nicer finished and better quality gun. But that's just my opinion.
 
gunsaholic said:
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about regarding steel damaging the older gun. If the SxS has thick enough walls and the chokes are open, the steel is not going to damage them. Pretty much all the Sauers (such as on tradeex) , Fegs, Stevens, Ithaca NID, Ithaca Nitro Special, etc have plenty enough barrel wall thickness. I wouldn't shoot steel out of older english and maybe french guns as many of those have thin walls and are built light for carrying for upland game. This is being made more complicated than it needs to be. If you find an older gun that fits you at a decent price, such as the many brands mentioned, then go for it if you are after a SxS on a budget. For the amount of shooting you are talking about, they will last until the cows come home.
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I agree. I've spent a lot of time in a duck blind with a fellow who shoots steel through a 12 ga. Stevens 311 choked Mod./Full, with no ill effects on the gun. Modern steel shot wads have pretty much taken care of the barrel scoring issue and his gun hasn't developed a ring bulge from the chokes.

If a fellow happens to score a barrel on an old, low-value, non-collector double, then so what? Just keep shooting. Not all guns are tanks like my buddy's 311 though, and I'd be more comfortable shooting IC/Mod chokes for steel.

I should add though that I was advised by someone eminently qualified to never shoot steel through the Ithaca/SKB Model 100/200's. I didn't ask him exactly what the damage is, but those guns are on the light side and I would assume that their chrome-lined barrels are in the thin-walled category.
 
gunsaholic said:
I shot number 2 steel shot through every gun I have hunted waterfowl with, including sxS's. I have seen other SxS's as well as older pumps and automatics that have been used for steel shot since it came out. None I have seen were buggered from steel shot. Oops, tell a lie. I saw one older Mossberg 500 that was cracked at the end of the barrel. It was a full choke gun that had not been opened up and it wasn't sure if it was from steel shot or the bead was sticking too far into the barrel. Of the Sauer or Baikal, I'd take the Sauer just because I think it's a nicer finished and better quality gun. But that's just my opinion.
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Yup. The other guys in the blind with me shoot old, pre-steel shot Ithaca Model 37's.

EDIT: There's an old 870 Wingmaster that occasionally joins us too.
 
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