Airgun velocity laws

[mmatt]

Can someone explain what "less than 500 fps and/or 5.7 joules" means?

A 7.9gr .177 pellet produces 5.8 joules at 495 fps. How do they decide if it's "and" or "or"?

The reason I ask is that I'm wondering about the legalities of an airgun that fires 35gr .223 projectiles at less than 500 fps. It'd produce way more than 5.7 joules, but it looks like it doesn't seem to matter anyway? Heck, a 14.3gr .22 pellet at 495 fps makes 10.5 joules and they seem to be perfectly legal.

If it's all about the 500fps threshold, what's stopping us from making a .50 cal pellet gun at 495 fps? That'd almost be enough to take down a deer if you were close enough!

 

[trevj]

If it's all about the 500fps threshold, what's stopping us from making a .50 cal pellet gun at 495 fps? That'd almost be enough to take down a deer if you were close enough!

Absolutely nothing to stop you making an airgun that shoots bowling balls at less than 500 FPS (actually whatever it translates to in the Metric, but whatever), if you want to. Run the energy numbers on that!

What happened, was that there were a couple companies that introduced some really light weight pellets,that, if fired out of a crappy sub-500fps airgun, would put the velocity over, making the sellers of those airguns potentially liable if someone got arrested for owning a (under the law) illegal firearm. So they amended the law to require that the airgun had to exceed BOTH the 500fps, AND the 5.7 Joules energy, to be a 'firearm'. It was a move designed to keep the likes of CTire and WalMart from ending up with their fat in the fire, not particularly to help out the aigunners.

If you run the numbers, it pretty much amounts to going fast(er) with a very light pellet, but not a bunch fast. Really, you could shoot a styrofoam bead out of the airgun, and get really high velocities, but almost no energy carried out at range.

Take a look at the likes of Barnes Airguns and Denis Quackenbush's stuff, for the bigbore airguns. There is at least one airgun on youtube built around a surplussed 20mm cannon barrel.

Cheers
Trev

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Think of it this way, it has to both exceed the velocity and power thresholds you state, in order for it to be considered a firearm for those certain sections of the act (PAL, etc).

 

[mmatt]

I like what I'm hearing. Do you guys think there'd be a market for a small game hunting legal pistol (or rifle I guess) for hunters in provinces that allow airgun pistol hunting?

I'm thinking something that'd shoot a .223 projectile out of a PCP would be perfect for rabbits or squirrels.

What about if the projectile was fired by something other than air? I see Marstar had little gallery pistols that fired a .177 lead ball using a percussion cap. How about a .223 projectile fired by a magnum rifle primer? As long as it can't exceed 500fps, (I don't even know if it'd come close, I'm just thinking out loud here) do you think it'd pass the RCMP inspection? (if there is such a thing for non-regulated firearms)

 

[mgerski]

I like where you are going with this any thing new is great idea in my mind. I do not have any info to help you with this because Canadas gun laws are way to mesed up probably what would happen is the government would confiscate all the cap fired ones Marstar sold because they made a mistake and they are actually prohibited weapons.

 

[jzmtl]

I like what I'm hearing. Do you guys think there'd be a market for a small game hunting legal pistol (or rifle I guess) for hunters in provinces that allow airgun pistol hunting?

I'm thinking something that'd shoot a .223 projectile out of a PCP would be perfect for rabbits or squirrels.

What about if the projectile was fired by something other than air? I see Marstar had little gallery pistols that fired a .177 lead ball using a percussion cap. How about a .223 projectile fired by a magnum rifle primer? As long as it can't exceed 500fps, (I don't even know if it'd come close, I'm just thinking out loud here) do you think it'd pass the RCMP inspection? (if there is such a thing for non-regulated firearms)

It's no longer air guns if you add gunpowder to it, and in QC at least you must use a over 500 air gun to hunt. There are already tons of large caliber air guns around if you search for them, including many that hurl 50 cal lead balls.

 

[mmatt]

It's no longer air guns if you add gunpowder to it, and in QC at least you must use a over 500 air gun to hunt. There are already tons of large caliber air guns around if you search for them, including many that hurl 50 cal lead balls.

Canadian Law definition:

Air guns and other barreled weapons designed to have:
A muzzle velocity of 152.4 meters per second or less and/or
A muzzle energy of 5.7 joules or less.

Also, in NB, ON and I'm sure many others, you MAY hunt with airguns of less than 500fps including air pistols. Due to the convoluted hunting laws from province to province, this venture will definitely not be for everyone. But I'm sure that there are many who would like to hunt small game with a completely legal yet relatively powerful handgun.

The gallery guns I referred to earlier seem to be completely legal as the projectile they fire is less than 500fps in spite of the fact that it is not an "air" gun.

 

[piratepete]

There were some .25 sub-500 fps/non-PAL air rifles around for a while. I haven't seen them for sale for a few years now. The market was probably not big enough for the economics to work. There are plenty of sub-500 .22 that are adequate for rats at 30 feet.

I don't want to be the one to test in the courts whether it is legal to hunt deer with a .50, sub-500 air gun. Should we start your defense fund now? lol

 

[mmatt]

No, I'm not gonna do anything silly. I'm just looking for the most powerful handgun that I can legally hunt with. Right now it seems to be a Crosman 2240 or similar (.22 pellet pistol shooting a 14.3gr projectile just under 500 fps). I'd like to legally design and build one that shoots a heavier projectile at just under 500 fps giving me a better chance at a clean kill and maybe a few more meters of range.

 

[antiqueguy]

hmm id like to see if i could put a new .25 cal barrel on a 1377 frame with a flattop piston i bet it would be under 500fps but a .25 cal with more weight

 

[TPK]

Hunting with a handgun in Canada is illegal, period, doesn't matter if it's above or below 500 ft/sec. If the firearm is meant to be fired with one hand, you can not hunt with it any where in Canada.

 

[Grizzlypeg]

Hunting with a handgun in Canada is illegal, period, doesn't matter if it's above or below 500 ft/sec. If the firearm is meant to be fired with one hand, you can not hunt with it any where in Canada.

 

[antiqueguy]

Hunting with a handgun in Canada is illegal, period, doesn't matter if it's above or below 500 ft/sec. If the firearm is meant to be fired with one hand, you can not hunt with it any where in Canada.

no in ontario you can hunt with a sub 500 air pistol 100% legal i also think antique handguns could be used to hunt here but i still would no do it

 

[m39a2]

Hunting with a handgun in Canada is illegal, period, doesn't matter if it's above or below 500 ft/sec. If the firearm is meant to be fired with one hand, you can not hunt with it any where in Canada.

One should never make blanket statements like this without using some reference as to where the "Facts" came from, so, prove your statement!

Scott

 

[TPK]

One should never make blanket statements like this without using some reference as to where the "Facts" came from, so, prove your statement!

Scott

No, prove me wrong, I don't have the time or inclination to do your work for you. Hunt with a handgun in Canada and see where it gets you.

 

[youthshooter]

No, prove me wrong, I don't have the time or inclination to do your work for you. Hunt with a handgun in Canada and see where it gets you.

Learn the law, if it shoots under 500 fps is is not a firearm! Thus, it is not subject to restrictions that are imposed upon restricted firearms.

I can comfortably say that Scotty knows the law way better than you, me or many other people on this board. He was just asking you to prove your false statement.

Jack

 

[TPK]

Learn the law, if it shoots under 500 fps is is not a firearm! Thus, it is not subject to restrictions that are imposed upon restricted firearms.

I can comfortably say that Scotty knows the law way better than you, me or many other people on this board. He was just asking you to prove your false statement.

Jack

OK, I stand corrected .. sort of .. My statement "you can't hunt with a handgun in Canada" stands .. but if you have something so anemic it isn't even considered a firearm .. you can use it .. OK, I'll conceed that, but at that point .. is it ethical to try and hunt with something so poorly suited to the task at hand?

For the record ... I'm all for handgun hunting in Canada and firmly believe we should fight to get it back, so pleased don't take my previous posts as being aginst it.

 

[antiqueguy]

No, prove me wrong, I don't have the time or inclination to do your work for you. Hunt with a handgun in Canada and see where it gets you.

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@fw/documents/document/239841.pdf

Firearms
Firearms include rifles, shotguns, air or pellet guns, bows and
crossbows. You may use semi-automatic or repeating firearms for
hunting in Ontario, but not handguns that are restricted or prohibited
firearms or fully automatic firearms. Air and pellet pistols
with a muzzle velocity less than 152 metres (500 feet) per second
may be used for hunting in Ontario (see restrictions on page 22).

that covers ontario

 

[TPK]

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume/groups/lr/@mnr/@fw/documents/document/239841.pdf

Firearms
Firearms include rifles, shotguns, air or pellet guns, bows and
crossbows. You may use semi-automatic or repeating firearms for
hunting in Ontario, but not handguns that are restricted or prohibited
firearms or fully automatic firearms. Air and pellet pistols
with a muzzle velocity less than 152 metres (500 feet) per second
may be used for hunting in Ontario (see restrictions on page 22).

that covers ontario

Indeed it does, thank-you for educating me on that front. My apologies.

 

[mmatt]

.. is it ethical to try and hunt with something so poorly suited to the task at hand?

I easily took a snowshoe hare with my 2240 the other day. Yes, shot placement is key as is the max distance at which one should attempt the shot. But that hare died faster than others I have taken with with a .22 or shotgun. Is it easy? Nope. Is it ethical? It certain can be so long as you know your limits (as is the case in any hunting situation with any type of gun, bow or whatever).

It's a lot of fun too!