Akdal 1919 Now non-restricted

fenceline said:
C42 was Re writing law.

The cz858 and Swiss were put back to nr and r by oic made possible by C42.
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I stand corrected, but what I'm really asking for is an example where the RCMP has changed the classification of a firearms from prohib or restricted to nonres - where that firearm was not originally classified as nonrestricted. Even people who are not firearms enthusiasts - like civil libertarians - recognize that the circumstances surrounding the swiss/CZ ban were circumstances that unfairly disenfranchised citizens.

My assumption about the RCMP is that they are almost completely resistant to lobbying from the gun community. If that assumption is mistaken, so much the better.
 
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aiwa said:
I stand corrected, but what I'm really asking for is an example where the RCMP has changed the classification of a firearms from prohib or restricted to nonres - where that firearm was not originally classified as nonrestricted. Even people who are not firearms enthusiasts - like civil libertarians - recognize that the circumstances surrounding the swiss/CZ ban were circumstances that unfairly disenfranchised citizens.

My assumption about the RCMP is that they are almost completely resistant to lobbying from the gun community. If that assumption is mistaken, so much the better.
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Huh... you're looking for a case where a NR rifle (meaning, it has been classified as NR by the RCMP in the first place) later becomes restricted or prohibited, then even later returns to NR status?

I don't think there's any such case (though I could be wrong). It's not a question of lobbying: once the RCMP (like any bureaucracy) makes a decision, it takes a Writ from God (Gov't equivalent: a ministerial order) to reverse it. Every time they have to reverse a decision, their credibility takes a hit. Look at the Vatican for a practical example of that attitude. :)
 
Grawfr said:
Huh... you're looking for a case where a NR rifle (meaning, it has been classified as NR by the RCMP in the first place) later becomes restricted or prohibited, then even later returns to NR status?

I don't think there's any such case (though I could be wrong). It's not a question of lobbying: once the RCMP (like any bureaucracy) makes a decision, it takes a Writ from God (Gov't equivalent: a ministerial order) to reverse it. Every time they have to reverse a decision, their credibility takes a hit. Look at the Vatican for a practical example of that attitude. :)
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There was the example of the ######## a few years ago. It started as "non-restricted" (because the one-man show manufacturer illegally (my opinion) used the SAS-3 FRT to improperly register open-bolt semi-auto Sten guns). The RCMP re-classed them PROHIBITED once they inspected a physical example and determined it was not really an SAS-3. The manufacturer took them to court and it was looking like the judiciary would reverse the RCMP ruling that prohibited the gun. Before the case could be definitively settled by a judge (which would have set precedent), the lab conceded the issue and re-classed them NON-RESTRICED voluntarily (or restricted for short barrel lengths) - effectively halting judicial proceedings.

In the background, after the case was settled out of court, the RCMP lab worked feverishly for around 3 years to prove the ######## was "easily converted". A copy of the reason they ultimately used to once again seek classification as PROHIBITED was not publicly released (ostensibly a public safety exemption to the Access to Info Act). I anecdotally heard they hand-loaded 9mm until they found the exact recipe to make a sample gun fire several rounds in a row. The gun was then re-PROHIBITED and as far as I know the manufacturer did not challenge legally the second time around. Presumably they did not see the business case to spent tens of thousands more on legal fees.

Within weeks, many other open-bolt guns were arbitrarily re-classed as PROHIBITED using the ######## as a classification precedent. The somewhat popular Sport system Dietrich BD38 and BD3008 guns fell into that trap, all because the ######## had originally abused an FRT entry and "kicked the sleeping bear".

EDIT - sorry, apparently the gun I am referring to is a banned word on CGN and it won't let me type it. You get the idea though. Doesn't matter what gun it actually was.
 
Claven2 said:
There was the example of the ######## a few years ago. It started as "non-restricted" (because the one-man show manufacturer illegally (my opinion) used the SAS-3 FRT to improperly register open-bolt semi-auto Sten guns). The RCMP re-classed them PROHIBITED once they inspected a physical example and determined it was not really an SAS-3. The manufacturer took them to court and it was looking like the judiciary would reverse the RCMP ruling that prohibited the gun. Before the case could be definitively settled by a judge (which would have set precedent), the lab conceded the issue and re-classed them NON-RESTRICED voluntarily (or restricted for short barrel lengths) - effectively halting judicial proceedings.

In the background, after the case was settled out of court, the RCMP lab worked feverishly for around 3 years to prove the ######## was "easily converted". A copy of the reason they ultimately used to once again seek classification as PROHIBITED was not publicly released (ostensibly a public safety exemption to the Access to Info Act). I anecdotally heard they hand-loaded 9mm until they found the exact recipe to make a sample gun fire several rounds in a row. The gun was then re-PROHIBITED and as far as I know the manufacturer did not challenge legally the second time around. Presumably they did not see the business case to spent tens of thousands more on legal fees.

Within weeks, many other open-bolt guns were arbitrarily re-classed as PROHIBITED using the ######## as a classification precedent. The somewhat popular Sport system Dietrich BD38 and BD3008 guns fell into that trap, all because the ######## had originally abused an FRT entry and "kicked the sleeping bear".

EDIT - sorry, apparently the gun I am referring to is a banned word on CGN and it won't let me type it. You get the idea though. Doesn't matter what gun it actually was.
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Ahh this is why the lab wants all sas3 designs submitted for testing even if restricted! I don't see how they can make that mandatory as there is nothing written into the regs saying that is the case....
 
Grawfr said:
Huh... you're looking for a case where a NR rifle (meaning, it has been classified as NR by the RCMP in the first place) later becomes restricted or prohibited, then even later returns to NR status?
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No. I'm talking about examples of guns that are initially classified as prohib or restricted, and then become non. That seems to be what happened in this case (the Akdal). To me this seems highly unusual, so I was looking for a precedent. In particular, I was looking for an example that was not the Swissarms/CZ example. Although those guns went from prohib to nonres, they went from non-res to prohib first. I want to call the Swissarms/CZ example a 'special case'. There seems to be several examples where nonrestricted guns became restricted or prohib. What makes this (Akdal) situation unique is that the inverse happened.

Grawfr said:
I don't think there's any such case (though I could be wrong). It's not a question of lobbying: once the RCMP (like any bureaucracy) makes a decision, it takes a Writ from God (Gov't equivalent: a ministerial order) to reverse it.
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..and this was kind of my opinion until I read this thread. Wolverine & Canam assert that this is not necessarily the case; that some importers simply give up when the RCMP makes a poor classification on a new firearm. They should, instead, challenge that mis-classification.
 
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Claven2 said:
There was the example of the ######## a few years ago. It started as "non-restricted" (because the one-man show manufacturer illegally (my opinion) used the SAS-3 FRT to improperly register open-bolt semi-auto Sten guns). The RCMP re-classed them PROHIBITED once they inspected a physical example and determined it was not really an SAS-3. The manufacturer took them to court and it was looking like the judiciary would reverse the RCMP ruling that prohibited the gun. Before the case could be definitively settled by a judge (which would have set precedent), the lab conceded the issue and re-classed them NON-RESTRICED voluntarily (or restricted for short barrel lengths) - effectively halting judicial proceedings.

In the background, after the case was settled out of court, the RCMP lab worked feverishly for around 3 years to prove the ######## was "easily converted". A copy of the reason they ultimately used to once again seek classification as PROHIBITED was not publicly released (ostensibly a public safety exemption to the Access to Info Act). I anecdotally heard they hand-loaded 9mm until they found the exact recipe to make a sample gun fire several rounds in a row. The gun was then re-PROHIBITED and as far as I know the manufacturer did not challenge legally the second time around. Presumably they did not see the business case to spent tens of thousands more on legal fees.

Within weeks, many other open-bolt guns were arbitrarily re-classed as PROHIBITED using the ######## as a classification precedent. The somewhat popular Sport system Dietrich BD38 and BD3008 guns fell into that trap, all because the ######## had originally abused an FRT entry and "kicked the sleeping bear".

EDIT - sorry, apparently the gun I am referring to is a banned word on CGN and it won't let me type it. You get the idea though. Doesn't matter what gun it actually was.
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How right you are, a simple case of greed and to hell with every one else, yet, at the time, he was praised on CGN by people who didn't know better.
 
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aiwa said:
No. I'm talking about examples of guns that are initially classified as prohib or restricted, and then become non. That seems to be what happened in this case (the Akdal). To me this seems highly unusual, so I was looking for a precedent. In particular, I was looking for an example that was not the Swissarms/CZ example. Although those guns went from prohib to nonres, they went from non-res to prohib first. I want to call the Swissarms/CZ example a 'special case'. There seems to be several examples where nonrestricted guns became restricted or prohib. What makes this (Akdal) situation unique is that the inverse happened.



..and this was kind of my opinion until I read this thread. Wolverine & Canam assert that this is not necessarily the case; that some importers simply give up when the RCMP makes a poor classification on a new firearm. They should, instead, challenge that mis-classification.
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I have done this several times. The ArmaLite AR180B and the CZ91S Skorpion are two that come to mind. Both classed as prohibited when I first imported them, but I argued otherwise and had them corrected to non-restricted and restricted. The last case is the Alpharms 15SA shotgun (only took 2 1/2 years) to get her corrected from restricted to non-restricted, also know as the AKDAL1919. :)
 
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aiwa said:
Noted. Thanks for filling out my knowledge a little bit. Perhaps Wolverine should handle ALL firearm importations into Canada.
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No I wouldn,t want that, I support free enterprise but I wish the industry would unite and support each other. The ignorance within our own ranks amazes me., yet we have skills and knowledge that combined could make us a force to be reckoned with. My pet peeve is that most people reading this still believe the FRT is law!
 
aiwa said:
No. I'm talking about examples of guns that are initially classified as prohib or restricted, and then become non. That seems to be what happened in this case (the Akdal). To me this seems highly unusual, so I was looking for a precedent. In particular, I was looking for an example that was not the Swissarms/CZ example. Although those guns went from prohib to nonres, they went from non-res to prohib first. I want to call the Swissarms/CZ example a 'special case'. There seems to be several examples where nonrestricted guns became restricted or prohib. What makes this (Akdal) situation unique is that the inverse happened.
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I think the only reason the RCMP reclassified this to non-restricted is because they realized that this gun is actually a shotgun and not an AR15 platform.
 
Mr Wolverine said:
My pet peeve is that most people reading this still believe the FRT is law!
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Maybe not a law in itself, but surely a set of rules with significant legal consequences. If I'm stopped with a firearm that the FRT says is prohib, the RCMP lay charges. Sure I could challenge those charges in court - but I can challenge ANY charges in court.
 
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Mr Wolverine said:
Heaven forbid! You are not suggesting that maybe if we got our selves organized we might be better off :) what ever next?
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A simple conference call may do the trick, or a written letter to each importer from someone such as your self suggesting organization and change for the better.

All I know is that because of your efforts, I know where I'm spending my money from now on. I support anyone who supports my hobby, and doesn't just give up and run with there tail between there legs.
 
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