All-copper bullets

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Redlich

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Let's talk about the lead-free type bullets available, their advantages/disadvantages, and their uses.

As far as I understand it, Barnes pioneered the concept with their TSX bullet being their best seller according to their website. The bullet is all copper, meaning core separation is impossible (there isn't one). These bullets are designed to open like a flower petal into 4 triangles very quickly, then stop expansion at a certain point, retaining nearly 100% weight at a very wide impact velocity range. Down sides, if you can call them that, is that these bullets are longer than lead core types in order to maintain similar weight, meaning possibly less room for powder if you must seat it deeply in the case, (which may be a problem in the 300wm with its short neck) and a need to modify load data from the norm for caliber/weight.

The Barnes MRX is another alternative with a tungsten based alloy core at the base but a copper front for expansion. I've never heard from anyone who uses this, but it should allow for a shorter bullet with equal length... but is it possible for the core to separate? It sounds like a modified partition but without the lead in front.

Hornady also has a lead free bullet of similar design principles to the barnes TXX, they call it the GMX. The GMX expands traditionally into a blunt nose rather than in 4 "petals", and is designed to use the same load data as other bullets for the caliber/weight, according to Hornady. I'm not sure if it's expansion velocity range is as big as for Barnes, info would be good on this.

Nosler also produces a bullet that appears similar to Hornady's, the "E-Tip". I don't know much about these, but their website says that minimum impact velocity is a fairly typical 1800fps min, which is reasonable, and the max velocity is stated as "unlimited".

I've heard it said elsewhere that you can use a lower grain bullet with bullets of this type and still get the same penetration, for example using a 165 grain 30 cal instead of a 180 or 200 grain. Is this true, and if so then why? What is the benefit of this style of bullet over a bonded core or partition? Some people talk about these types of bullets as if they're god's gift to hunters, while other people never mention them at all. Just how good are they? I'd love to give the hornady's a try as they're also very economically priced, less than the interbonds... but they don't offer a 180 grain 30 cal (yet) and I'm leery to try 165 on anything bigger than a deer. I'd also be worried about retained velocity down range with a lighter bullet. Dogleg, you mentioned in the "What Kills" thread that you use the barnes bullets and love them, I was going to put all this in that thread but I decided not to Hijack it ;)

So what are everyone's opinions on these types of bullets? lead-free hippy fad, or wave of the future?

Red
 
I hunt fairly exclusively with Barnes bullets, never had a problem. Great wound channel and superior penetration. Also how much lead do you want to put into meat you are going to eat? Yep they cost more but how many do you need to fire? Did some test firing with the Nosler and Hornady styles but have not taken any game with them.
The X bullet is accurate, devastating and humane.
 
But why do bullets of this type penetrate more? Is it purely because of weight retention? Because even when we're looking at leaded bullets with high weight retention (95%+) it's still presented that copper ones will still penetrate more, even with the same sectional density. And is the penetration greater to the extent that you can truly move down in bullet weight and see the same or better performance?

Also, any input into the differences between brands of these bullets, or other brands I didn't mention would be great :) or are they all created equal?

Thanks,
Red
 
In my experience the X bullet penetrates more as a result of a smaller diameter expansion and less weight loss.It cuts more as it rotates and allows stuff to flow between the petals, where as a conventional bullet is a solid nose that is being pushed through game, and with a 2 piece bullet(cup/core) weight loss is more significant.
 
TSXs penetrate more, because they have less frontal area (when exanded)than most conventional bullets. The smaller frontal area makes a smaller wound channel, which is the inescapeable trade-off. Smaller wound channels tend to kill slower than big ones.

Everything is a trade off, you can't get something for nothing. I'd have to add them up, but have killed over 50 big game aniamls with TSXs in different different calibers. I find myself migrateing back to bullets with lead in them, though for various reasons still use the TSXs in several calibers.

I can't say that I exactly love them, and have come to view them as a specialty bullet. I see them at their best for shooting big animals with small guns, small animals with big guns, and the biggest animals with the biggest guns. For more ordinary uses, more ordinary bullets may serve you better.

The TSXs are a fair candidate for a do everything bullet, but not for a do everything best bullet. My current enthusiasm is the Swift A-Frame.
 
I shot a 4x4 Whitetail broadside from +/- 70 yards with a .308 using a 150 gr GMX. Bullet went through and through and took out the heart. Walked +/- 30 yards and then dropped.
So, so far no complaints :D I load them the same as regular Hornady 150 gr Interbonds and my chrono says they fly at comparable speeds, +/- 2800 fps.


Redlich said:
Let's talk about the lead-free type bullets available, their advantages/disadvantages, and their uses.

As far as I understand it, Barnes pioneered the concept with their TSX bullet being their best seller according to their website. The bullet is all copper, meaning core separation is impossible (there isn't one). These bullets are designed to open like a flower petal into 4 triangles very quickly, then stop expansion at a certain point, retaining nearly 100% weight at a very wide impact velocity range. Down sides, if you can call them that, is that these bullets are longer than lead core types in order to maintain similar weight, meaning possibly less room for powder if you must seat it deeply in the case, (which may be a problem in the 300wm with its short neck) and a need to modify load data from the norm for caliber/weight.

The Barnes MRX is another alternative with a tungsten based alloy core at the base but a copper front for expansion. I've never heard from anyone who uses this, but it should allow for a shorter bullet with equal length... but is it possible for the core to separate? It sounds like a modified partition but without the lead in front.

Hornady also has a lead free bullet of similar design principles to the barnes TXX, they call it the GMX. The GMX expands traditionally into a blunt nose rather than in 4 "petals", and is designed to use the same load data as other bullets for the caliber/weight, according to Hornady. I'm not sure if it's expansion velocity range is as big as for Barnes, info would be good on this.

Nosler also produces a bullet that appears similar to Hornady's, the "E-Tip". I don't know much about these, but their website says that minimum impact velocity is a fairly typical 1800fps min, which is reasonable, and the max velocity is stated as "unlimited".

I've heard it said elsewhere that you can use a lower grain bullet with bullets of this type and still get the same penetration, for example using a 165 grain 30 cal instead of a 180 or 200 grain. Is this true, and if so then why? What is the benefit of this style of bullet over a bonded core or partition? Some people talk about these types of bullets as if they're god's gift to hunters, while other people never mention them at all. Just how good are they? I'd love to give the hornady's a try as they're also very economically priced, less than the interbonds... but they don't offer a 180 grain 30 cal (yet) and I'm leery to try 165 on anything bigger than a deer. I'd also be worried about retained velocity down range with a lighter bullet. Dogleg, you mentioned in the "What Kills" thread that you use the barnes bullets and love them, I was going to put all this in that thread but I decided not to Hijack it ;)

So what are everyone's opinions on these types of bullets? lead-free hippy fad, or wave of the future?

Red
Click to expand...
 
Less expansion and used in calibers that require expansion, totally unnecessary invention made popular by the advertising media, very expensive to pay for that advertising so over $1/bullet. If you don't want alot of expansion you are better off to go with a heavier and longer bullet.
 
Best bullets

I have used or tied most bullets out there and most work, some yes leave lead behind which is not so good. But I have found that for the most part that it does not matter which one you use if you have enough gun to do the job, you will get complete pass though and if that happens the bullet has not released all of its energy anyway. Bigger, and faster is not all of it you have to deal with the range at which you are trying to kill your game. Dead is Dead but over Kill equals meat loss if you use a bullet that blows apart a high velocity, some say slow and heavy will do a better job. off the topic I have watched those VLD videos and think the reason that you look to work at long range is they have slowed down and simply blow apart releasing all their energy. As a side note I use Swift scriccoo in most of cailbers and for the big stuff the Barnes tsx Jim.
 
My understanding of projectiles or bullets....

We have a few types of bullets

1 Standard CUP AND CORE bullets

they have lead core and copper or gilding metal cup they can have lead tip, bronze tip, sabre tip, plastic tip of different colors or could be hollow point.
Those are traditional bullets working very well at moderate impact velocities
in most popular standard cartridges.(243,270,308,30-06,)

Rem core-loct, Winchester power points, Hornady interlocks and 100's of others Berger VLD, Nosler BT, Hornady SST belong here as well...they will disintegrate on impact if shot at close distance and high velocity.

Once more powerful cartridges were introduced generating higher velocities those bullets would not be tough enough to do the this job so bullet makers developed tougher bullets

2 H mantel, or partition

where lead core in the lower part of the bullet is contained in its own compartment designed to stay together and front part is like cup and core bullet designed to expand on impact.
Nosler partition, European H mantel

next generation and improvement was fusing cup and core using electrolysis

3 Electrolytically fused bullets

Their cup and core will not separate, but still those bullets loose substantial weight on impact when shot at closed distances at high velocities.

Nosler Accubonds, Hornady Interbonds,Federal Fusion ,Swift a frame (partitioned and fused)

so next step was to move to solid bullets MONOLITHS

4 Monolithic bullets made from pure copper or other gilding metals

those bullets are designed to retain about 99 to 100% weight after impact so they exceed in penetration and are tough enough for bone crushing performance from fastest magnums...even at short distance

Those are Barnes X (old school of monoliths not very accurate), Barnes TSX,
better accuracy, Barnes TTSX with highest BC due to plastic tip which helps better expansion, Nosler E-tips, Hornady GMX, Remington's expanding solids,
and GS bullets from South Africa where tough bullets are used on world toughest beasts...
Some of them have grooves in them, other have rings on them to reduce friction and fouling of the barrels.
GS bullets have extreme aerodynamic profiles with very high BC.

I hope this helps some with bullet selection.

One more thing I use monolithic bullets to reduce voluntary lead intake by me and my family.
2011 will see all my hunting buddies shooting monoliths only for meat animals.
We are shooting Barnes TTSX for hunting and Hornady SST for practice.

As for bone crushing 300 Win Mag my is 180 gr Barnes TTSX.

Barnes just released Barnes LRX Long Range TTSX Solid with tip and higher but unpublished yet BC. No grooves on this one.


I will add comment about Barnes MRX bullet I've shot antler-less Elk at 60 yards almost frontal presentation, pass through from rt shoulder and exit on last left rib. This was 160 gr from 7 STW at3300 ft/sec and 60 yards. I don"t think that they can separate

Andrew
 
Excellent post Andrew! Sums things up nicely.

I'm inclined to agree with Dogleg that the monolithic bullets have uses but, aside from reducing lead intake, are at their best in extreme circumstances (extreme close range high velocity, or where exceptional almost "solid" type penetration is needed). I'd worry on non-dangerous big game, especially at longer ranges, that the expansion would be sub-par. Bonded bullets may not be keeping 100% weight retention at close ranges, but honestly even 60% still gets the job done on north american game, and bonded bullets are typically 85%+ from what I've read.

Red
 
Lead in game isn't a realistic problem. Guys that use the copper bullets seem to like them.

I wonder about the copper bullets expanding reliably and/or consistantly. Being consistant is what puts meat on the table and game on the ground. I wonder how much speed variance affects the expansion. Well, obviously it will, a Lot.

My own experience: Hornady interlocks and nosler partitions are both extremely accurate and act consistantly, every time I test them. Not saying others aren't good, just saying I know how these act in different calibres at different speeds (the same)

If I absolutely, positively want to kill something, I'll use a hawk, and that's likely the softest lead bullet on the market, yet retains as close to 100% of it's weight of any bullet you'll likely ever shoot. So there goes that theory.

Save up your milkjugs and newspaper, do your own tests shooting through the milkjugs filled with water into a catchbox of newspaper. We shoot from 50-75yds from the jugs so it's a realistic hunting expectation.
The results may surprise you. We all rely on our bullets to take our game down. Truth be known with a lot of bullet choices it's the shooters accuracy that takes down the game, DESPITE the bullet's poor performance.

If you don't have enough milkjugs, just look for a local family with a teenage boy or two, they'll have lot's.
 
I tryed copper bullets one fall and did not like them at all.The bullets dont expand enough therefor the wound channel's\vital damage is'nt as great as to when useing lead bullets.Nothing but nosler for me now on.

& there's nothing wrong with alittle lead in meat.Guys who think that its bad to shoot a deer with a lead bullet and then eat the meat,dont know what there talking about:D JMO
 
Redlich said:
L
I've heard it said elsewhere that you can use a lower grain bullet with bullets of this type and still get the same penetration, for example using a 165 grain 30 cal instead of a 180 or 200 grain. Is this true, and if so then why? W
Red
Click to expand...

A 140gr TSX bullet form a 7-08 will outpenetrate a 200gr cup and lead core bullet from a 30-06.

A 130gr TTSX bullet from a .300 will outpenetrate a 180gr Hornady Interlock

Reason is they don't deform as much and retain their weight, so penetrate further.
 
All copper bullets will become more popular with all the negative issues popping up with lead contamination in our wild meat from lead core bullets.I would like to see an actual study to see if there is a legitimate issue
 
A FMJ bullet will out penetrate a TSX, so what?? A whole lotta folks got very old eating game meat, shot with lead bullets, they're still doing it now! I think too many people are drinking the Greenheads' Koolaid again!!
 
I use barnes tsx or partitions when hunting anything deer size and up. The other ammo I use on coyote and at the range.

I shoot fast calibers and hunt out east so the chances of shooting a black bear or moose at close range are pretty good and I want a bullet that will hold up well at high velocities
 
All I use for hunting is BarnesX.The last moose I shot was with my 25wssm & 100gr TTX
& the moose went about 15 feet & dropped.DAN>>>
 
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