I cannot get my scope level. I am slowly losing my mind. I have mounted perhaps hundreds of scopes, so I believe my head is not crooked... I hope. However I have never used 6 screw rings, only ever 1x1 or 2x2. So I am using Burris Signature XTR rings. I have tried tightening the 4 corner screws first, then the centre 2 on each ring but every time I get everything torqued down (After repeatedly checking level), I look again and the scope is tilted again. I am really tempted to order a Fix it Sticks Scope Jack, but still having a hard time justifying spending over $60 to do a job that I should be able to do, I thought. This is also my first "Precision Rifle" so perhaps I am being extra picky. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
Am I broken? Scope Levelling Help...
- Thread starter Da Jimmer
- Start date
Where are you putting your level? The key I’ve found is to take the turret cap off and put your level across there. Additionally what I’ve been doing with XTR rings is tighten down the middle two, then the outside four. I’m also considering just not putting in the center two. 6 is a pain and unnecessary.
1. I screwed a gun vise on a piece of plywood with 3 bolts and earnuts.
That way I can perfectly make my scope rail level, and sure won’t move the slightest during scope assembly .
2. I use wheeler scope level kit, their deluxe one.
It ain’t that good but everything looks straight.
Using a plumb ball to 100 and the reticle is perfectly parallel with my rope, and scope anti cant device perfectly level.
3. ARC M10 rings will not rotate scope at all while applying torque, seems I don’t want to use anything else anymore.
That way I can perfectly make my scope rail level, and sure won’t move the slightest during scope assembly .
2. I use wheeler scope level kit, their deluxe one.
It ain’t that good but everything looks straight.
Using a plumb ball to 100 and the reticle is perfectly parallel with my rope, and scope anti cant device perfectly level.
3. ARC M10 rings will not rotate scope at all while applying torque, seems I don’t want to use anything else anymore.
Thanks for the advice! I will try starting with the middle screws. I have been putting the level on the turret, and on 2 places on the chassis that are wide and flat, and true to the action. I would like to eventually switch to the ARC M10 rings and move these to a precision 22 build. But for now I am just trying to get this gun running to learn on. Haven't even got a bipod for it yet.
Lapping is what you are thinking of. The XTR Signature rings have a polymer sleeve in the ring that aligns the scope negating the need for lapping, as well as offering various thicknesses to create cant within the scope rings. Valid thought though, thankyou!
Todd Hodnett is hard to argue with.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycRhOjp9AVs
I did the get bend around the axle approach for years. Started with plumb lines, then levels (Precision Hardcore Gear levels are better than the Wheeler), than feeler gauges, then back to combination of levels & plumb lines then back to cussing at the thing, then eventually went to getting right behind the gun (not on it) and eye balling the damn thing.
Eye ball it, check it with levels & plumb line afterwards, you'd be surprised at how accurate you can be doing it that way.
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycRhOjp9AVs
I did the get bend around the axle approach for years. Started with plumb lines, then levels (Precision Hardcore Gear levels are better than the Wheeler), than feeler gauges, then back to combination of levels & plumb lines then back to cussing at the thing, then eventually went to getting right behind the gun (not on it) and eye balling the damn thing.
Eye ball it, check it with levels & plumb line afterwards, you'd be surprised at how accurate you can be doing it that way.
I remember when I used to run Badger USMC rings. The front rings had 6 little screws, the rear rings had 4. That thing was a pain in the ass to level. The scope would always rotate slightly when I was making my way around tightening up the x10 screws. I've since moved on to ARC M10 rings, they are very cleverly designed, and the easiest things to mount. Personally I don't think there's a better scope ring design. Something to think about for the future.
For leveling, I put a IOTA training aid on the scope (allows focus down to ~10 yards), and using an accurate construction type level and a sharpie I'll draw a crosshair on a cardboard box. I'll lay prone behind the rifle, putting the rifle in a position which I naturally get behind the rifle, and level the reticle in my scope with the one on the box. I tighten up the rings and then I'm done. Seems to work pretty damn well, and it's an easy thing to do with the ARC M10 rings. Takes no time at all, and no fussing about like it used to be with rings with 10+ screws.
I wouldn't focus on getting the scope level to the rifle/action, for a couple of reasons. One is because the reticle may not be perfectly level with the scope caps, another is that you may not normally shoot with your rifle perfectly level. I would level the reticle to YOU as the shooter, not the rifle.
For leveling, I put a IOTA training aid on the scope (allows focus down to ~10 yards), and using an accurate construction type level and a sharpie I'll draw a crosshair on a cardboard box. I'll lay prone behind the rifle, putting the rifle in a position which I naturally get behind the rifle, and level the reticle in my scope with the one on the box. I tighten up the rings and then I'm done. Seems to work pretty damn well, and it's an easy thing to do with the ARC M10 rings. Takes no time at all, and no fussing about like it used to be with rings with 10+ screws.
I wouldn't focus on getting the scope level to the rifle/action, for a couple of reasons. One is because the reticle may not be perfectly level with the scope caps, another is that you may not normally shoot with your rifle perfectly level. I would level the reticle to YOU as the shooter, not the rifle.
There is also the possibility of having a canted reticle.
Much higher possibility if it’s a Vortex.
I had a Vortex Viper PST that had a canted reticle right out of the box.
I had the vertical crosshair aligned with a vertical plum line and the horizontal crosshairs visibly off.
I sent it in and received a new scope.
Much higher possibility if it’s a Vortex.
I had a Vortex Viper PST that had a canted reticle right out of the box.
I had the vertical crosshair aligned with a vertical plum line and the horizontal crosshairs visibly off.
I sent it in and received a new scope.
That's certainly a possibility, more so with a cheaper scope (Viper is their "budget" line), but can happen in more high end optics as well.
That's why it's important to level the reticle, rather then focusing on leveling the scope to the rifle.
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
The Burris XTR rings are a complete PITA to install. The inserts are handy but I generally avoid using XTR rings if I can.
Also don’t worry about getting you reticle perfectly straight. As long as it is comfortable when vertical thats all that matters. The reticle must be vertical when the shot is taken not when the scope is mounted. At close ranges it makes very little difference anyways.
Also don’t worry about getting you reticle perfectly straight. As long as it is comfortable when vertical thats all that matters. The reticle must be vertical when the shot is taken not when the scope is mounted. At close ranges it makes very little difference anyways.
I level mine at the range on the bench. I take a target down the 100 meter , and carry a level with me, just level the target and get back to the bench to match my levelled rifle and target to the scope. Works well. I have tried the feeler gauges under the scope, flashlight through the scope on the wall, plumb bob in the house, I keep going back to the 100 m range and have my best results there.
Takes very slight alternating tightening on each screw to keep it straight. I use the Burris inserts.
Takes very slight alternating tightening on each screw to keep it straight. I use the Burris inserts.
Seven Lakes
CGN Regular
- Location
- Kitchener/Waterloo, ON
I’ve always mounted a bipod on the front of the rifle and bag on the rear, put a level on the scope rail (not bottom half of rings) and then adjusted the bipod legs to rotate the cant of the gun until the top of receiver is level, lock down bipod and then put a level on the top of the turret (caps removed if applicable). I always thought that worked well.
But I’ve now converted to the plumb line. With the rifle mounted on a bipod or preferably in a shop vice, I level the action and then mount the scope in the rings and set the reticle plumb with the plumb line. The turret caps as I’ve come to learn are not always 100% true to the axis of the reticle so can give you false sense of level and plumb. Gravity last I checked though is pretty constant and in my experience has worked much better.
As far as torquing down the screws, for a 6 screw I’ll start with the centers then work outwards. Regardless of the way you work your screws, once you feel them start to bite a bit to the point where they’re actually now clamping on the scope tube, I work in very very very small increments. Ie 1/2 or 1/4 turn increments, following the patterns I’ve decided on for the applicable number of screws in the ring. Sure it’s a pain in the arse to go around your patterns 10 times, but it’s also less frustrsting than torquin everything down and then having to start over. While I’m torquing the screws I’ll go back and check the reticle is still plumb with the plumb line a few times.
That method has been 100% for me ever since I switched to it. Ohh and for the plumb line, any string with a small weight on the end works. Last time I did a scope I took about 6’ of butchers twine and tied a pair of rings to the end and taped the other end with painters tape to my ceiling. Hardest part is coming across a vice if you don’t already have one.
But I’ve now converted to the plumb line. With the rifle mounted on a bipod or preferably in a shop vice, I level the action and then mount the scope in the rings and set the reticle plumb with the plumb line. The turret caps as I’ve come to learn are not always 100% true to the axis of the reticle so can give you false sense of level and plumb. Gravity last I checked though is pretty constant and in my experience has worked much better.
As far as torquing down the screws, for a 6 screw I’ll start with the centers then work outwards. Regardless of the way you work your screws, once you feel them start to bite a bit to the point where they’re actually now clamping on the scope tube, I work in very very very small increments. Ie 1/2 or 1/4 turn increments, following the patterns I’ve decided on for the applicable number of screws in the ring. Sure it’s a pain in the arse to go around your patterns 10 times, but it’s also less frustrsting than torquin everything down and then having to start over. While I’m torquing the screws I’ll go back and check the reticle is still plumb with the plumb line a few times.
That method has been 100% for me ever since I switched to it. Ohh and for the plumb line, any string with a small weight on the end works. Last time I did a scope I took about 6’ of butchers twine and tied a pair of rings to the end and taped the other end with painters tape to my ceiling. Hardest part is coming across a vice if you don’t already have one.
Seven Lakes
CGN Regular
- Location
- Kitchener/Waterloo, ON
For a hunting rifle shooting out to say 2-300 yards, probably fine.
Not the case when you’re dialing come ups or windage at distance and the direction of those adjustments in the scope isn’t centred to the bore axis.
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
That is incorrect. The reticle must be vertical when the shot is taken. You could literally mount it completely crooked to the rifle and it wouldn’t matter. It only matters that its vertical when you fire.
This is explained in Bryan Litz book Applied Ballistics.
Seven Lakes
CGN Regular
- Location
- Kitchener/Waterloo, ON
I’m familiar enough with Litz and have gone down the rabbit hole on some of his publicly available info and that of others in his field. And sure while you can still have a useable rifle when the reticle isn’t in line with the bore axis, you can’t argue that particularly when using canted rings/bases, the reticle needs to be plumb to the bore axis.
The argument for needed the reticle plumb to the bore is that orherwise, when you dial your come ups to go from say 100 yard zero to distance X, you’ll also have an impact in windage (assuming 0 wind) because of the angular offset of the bore relative to the plumb line of the reticle by the time you true up your reticle. Ie because the reticle isn’t plumb to the axis you’ll see changes in the L/R impact of the bullet as you move out in range without even making any adjustments to the windage turret. Sure you can build your DOPE once you’ve shot at various distances and know what that windage error is at various distances, but then again why allow that to be a variable on top of already having to read wind when the solution is simply to get the reticle plumb to the bore?
