Amateur reloader

[alpining]

Again, you're not answering the critical question. What mistake did the reloader make, if they were using published data, that would result in a cartridge being loaded "well over a cartridge's max pressure"? WAY TOO MUCH POWDER!!! In which case, the chrono won't do $hit because they are probably too busy collecting their fingers off the ground.

Chrono's measure velocity, period. Are they a useful reloading tool? Sure, but they don't provide a user with ANY pressure information. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero....

If you use a chronograph while working up a load, they allow you to see problems coming before they become a problem. If MV is getting higher than expected earlier than expected (given the reloading data you're working with), something is going on that might need attention. If it's more erratic than expected, something is going on that might need attention. A chronograph will tell you if MV is doing anything weird or unexpected, at which point you can stop and have a think. Before there are serious consequences.

It's not just about powder charge. Just about any other factor can get mixed up while reloading. Many of them have potentially serious consequences. I'm sure people make errors while reloading all the time, and usually there are no noticeable consequences because they were minor mistakes, and guns and cartridge cases are usually overengineered to handle it. Those people would never even know they were lucky. Chrono data might help them see it coming.

As I said above, MV data from a chronograph is technically a proxy measure for chamber pressure. But that's splitting hairs for most people.

If the exact same load is fired from a 2" revolver, 6" auto, and a 10" test fixture, will the cartridge pressure change? What about the velocities, did they change? What correlation do I make?

I'm going to stick by my statement. Use published data, exercise safe reloading practices, and always determine your own OAL so you don't have to worry about pressure. It's too late if you're hoping a chrono reading will save you from a catastrophic error.

Not sure of your point: Of course the pressures will be different. Every barrel's chamber, throat and rifling is different, and those have nothing to do with barrel length. You don't compare MV data across different barrel lengths, you compare MV data for your barrel length (which is listed in good manuals). But really you're interested in MV data specific to your particular barrel, and how it varies with your components and loading techniques.

Absolutely, nothing can prevent you from double charging (but as above, using bulky powders helps). Though I guess Trailboss can, if you're lucky enough to own some.

Absolutely, a chrono will show you if there is something weird going on with your load as you are doing the workup. Simply not being aware of it doesn't mean that there is no problem.

 

[dan belisle]

If the exact same load is fired from a 2" revolver, 6" auto, and a 10" test fixture, will the cartridge pressure change? What about the velocities, did they change? What correlation do I make?

I'm going to stick by my statement. Use published data, exercise safe reloading practices, and always determine your own OAL so you don't have to worry about pressure. It's too late if you're hoping a chrono reading will save you from a catastrophic error.

Apparently you've never done this. You compare your velocities to factory loads, and other loads in the same firearm. - dan

 

[BracheteMachete]

Win 231 or CFE pistol would be my recommendation. A big enough charge that a double charge might be noticed. Titegroup is a smaller charge of powder, but otherwise an excellent choice.

I agree with Ganderite. Titegroup takes up much less space in case. Double charges will at best scare the crap out of you and at worst hurt you significantly. I went through a pound of cfe pistol before going to Titegroup. I like both powder’s probably equally.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

This is a thread for beginners. I don't think you'll find many people who will say that it is categorically "no problem" to use ammunition that is well over a cartridge's max pressure. Reading primers can work, but it doesn't always work, and that's the problem. Chronograph data is the by far the best indicator of pressure, anything else is really just guesswork. If it's the best guess that you have, and you have to make it, then that's one thing. But since chronographs are so inexpensive, there's not much reason not to use one.

Sure, it is possible to safely reload pistol cartridges without using a chronograph - Just like everything, as long as you don't make the wrong kind of mistakes. Reloaders got by for generations before chronographs became cheap and available. Most of them survived without injury. Of course, some didn't. I went without a chronograph for years, until I realized how useful the data is, and just how blind you are without one. Reloading with the benefit of chronograph data is just better. And safer. The OP is asking about how to choose powder, and I recommend chrono data as a very useful tool for comparing how different powders perform in any individual gun. It can also reveal issues that you didn't even know were there, including potentially serious safety issues. A chronograph obviously isn't magic, you can still hurt yourself. But it gives you much more information, and more useful information to help you stay in the green.

I won't disagree with your experience, but I will disagree with your conclusion: Just because you survived without any damage to your guns (and yourself) doesn't mean that everyone else would, using their guns and their loads. Too many variables. That's why reloading manuals generally have more conservative recommendations compared to the "works fine for me" brigade on the internet. Absolutely, every new reloader should decide for themselves. If you ignore the advice in reloading manuals, that's your business. It sounds like you are also recommending for beginners to ignore the advice in reloading manuals, so I've got to say my piece..

1. I NEVER suggested anyone should routinely use overpressure ammunition. I said I experimented with it. I do not use intentionally overpressure ammunition.

2. It is possible to safely load without a chronograph? Seriously? You know that MILLIONS of reloaders have made BILLIONS of rounds of ammo for 70+ decades without the use of a chronograph. Most survived? The number of people who have been injured by bad reloads is statistically insignificant. What you are suggesting is unbelievably rare.

3. In fact I said the EXACT OPPOSITE. I said as long as a person follows the listed load data, there was no need for a chronograph ... because that ammo will be safe.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

Again, you're not answering the critical question. What mistake did the reloader make, if they were using published data, that would result in a cartridge being loaded "well over a cartridge's max pressure"? WAY TOO MUCH POWDER!!! In which case, the chrono won't do $hit because they are probably too busy collecting their fingers off the ground.

Chrono's measure velocity, period. Are they a useful reloading tool? Sure, but they don't provide a user with ANY pressure information. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_chronograph

Correct.

No they don't, but the chrono's data can be a useful correlation to pressure. Understanding that and using that information will help you from overloading your cartridge. - dan

Following the published data will prevent overpressure ammo. There are numerous factors involved in both chamber pressure and projectile velocity. As a result, velocity is not a good indicator of chamber pressure.

If the exact same load is fired from a 2" revolver, 6" auto, and a 10" test fixture, will the cartridge pressure change? What about the velocities, did they change? What correlation do I make?

I'm going to stick by my statement. Use published data, exercise safe reloading practices, and always determine your own OAL so you don't have to worry about pressure. It's too late if you're hoping a chrono reading will save you from a catastrophic error.

Correct.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

If you use a chronograph while working up a load, they allow you to see problems coming before they become a problem. If MV is getting higher than expected earlier than expected (given the reloading data you're working with), something is going on that might need attention. If it's more erratic than expected, something is going on that might need attention. A chronograph will tell you if MV is doing anything weird or unexpected, at which point you can stop and have a think. Before there are serious consequences.

It's not just about powder charge. Just about any other factor can get mixed up while reloading. Many of them have potentially serious consequences. I'm sure people make errors while reloading all the time, and usually there are no noticeable consequences because they were minor mistakes, and guns and cartridge cases are usually overengineered to handle it. Those people would never even know they were lucky. Chrono data might help them see it coming.

As I said above, MV data from a chronograph is technically a proxy measure for chamber pressure. But that's splitting hairs for most people.

NO, muzzle velocity IS NOT any kind of measure of chamber pressure. It is entirely possible to load to a specified velocity and go wildly overpressure. The reason we have different powder burning rates is so both pressure and velocity can be tailored to a safe load.

As an example, let's say you are reloading full power 44 Mag loads using a slow burning magnum powder. Substitute something like Red Dot and you might have difficulty reaching the target velocity even while chamber pressure goes through the roof. THIS is why we look at primers to indicate chamber pressure and why muzzle velocity is not a reliable indicator of chamber pressure.

The problem is you fundamentally do not understand how chamber pressure is generated and how that may or may not relate to muzzle velocity. You are telling people who know better, that we are wrong.


You talk about "mistakes" being made while reloading without noticing that those mistakes could just as easily be made after load development is completed. By your logic you should chronograph every single round you shoot ... to watch out for mistakes that may have occurred. You also don't understand statistics, variation and normal distribution. IF you see some variation in velocity, is it normal or is it an indicator of a problem? You cannot possibly know the answer to that question without a ton of datapoints. I can assure you that a 5-round data sample is statistically meaningless. That one group had a small SD and the next group had a slightly larger SD is not statistically meaningful.

Not sure of your point: Of course the pressures will be different. Every barrel's chamber, throat and rifling is different, and those have nothing to do with barrel length. You don't compare MV data across different barrel lengths, you compare MV data for your barrel length (which is listed in good manuals). But really you're interested in MV data specific to your particular barrel, and how it varies with your components and loading techniques.

Absolutely, a chrono will show you if there is something weird going on with your load as you are doing the workup. Simply not being aware of it doesn't mean that there is no problem.

Loading manuals show velocity for one barrel length. You are comparing your velocity to the listed velocity, in a barrel that may or may not be the same length. Barrels themselves vary considerably. One batch of ammo shot through different barrels will produce different velocities. This alone demolishes the notion that muzzle velocity indicates chamber pressure.

Then there are variations in powder and primers. And finally there are large variations in bullets, diameter, bearing surface length, jacket thickness and material. The listed velocity is not a hard limit and the chances of you or I getting the exact same velocity as the manual, approaches zero.

Apparently you've never done this. You compare your velocities to factory loads, and other loads in the same firearm. - dan

You buy multiple boxes of factory ammo for every cartridge and bullet weight that you want to reload? Right .............

NOBODY does this.

 

[dan belisle]

Correct.





Following the published data will prevent overpressure ammo. There are numerous factors involved in both chamber pressure and projectile velocity. As a result, velocity is not a good indicator of chamber pressure.




Correct.

Not always. Published data comes from different rifles or receivers, different barrels, different lots of powders, bullets, etc. - dan

 

[dan belisle]

NO, muzzle velocity IS NOT any kind of measure of chamber pressure. It is entirely possible to load to a specified velocity and go wildly overpressure. The reason we have different powder burning rates is so both pressure and velocity can be tailored to a safe load.

As an example, let's say you are reloading full power 44 Mag loads using a slow burning magnum powder. Substitute something like Red Dot and you might have difficulty reaching the target velocity even while chamber pressure goes through the roof. THIS is why we look at primers to indicate chamber pressure and why muzzle velocity is not a reliable indicator of chamber pressure.

The problem is you fundamentally do not understand how chamber pressure is generated and how that may or may not relate to muzzle velocity. You are telling people who know better, that we are wrong.


You talk about "mistakes" being made while reloading without noticing that those mistakes could just as easily be made after load development is completed. By your logic you should chronograph every single round you shoot ... to watch out for mistakes that may have occurred. You also don't understand statistics, variation and normal distribution. IF you see some variation in velocity, is it normal or is it an indicator of a problem? You cannot possibly know the answer to that question without a ton of datapoints. I can assure you that a 5-round data sample is statistically meaningless. That one group had a small SD and the next group had a slightly larger SD is not statistically meaningful.





Loading manuals show velocity for one barrel length. You are comparing your velocity to the listed velocity, in a barrel that may or may not be the same length. Barrels themselves vary considerably. One batch of ammo shot through different barrels will produce different velocities. This alone demolishes the notion that muzzle velocity indicates chamber pressure.

Then there are variations in powder and primers. And finally there are large variations in bullets, diameter, bearing surface length, jacket thickness and material. The listed velocity is not a hard limit and the chances of you or I getting the exact same velocity as the manual, approaches zero.





You buy multiple boxes of factory ammo for every cartridge and bullet weight that you want to reload? Right .............

NOBODY does this.

Someone is being deliberately obtuse I think. - dan

 

[alpining]

1. I NEVER suggested anyone should routinely use overpressure ammunition. I said I experimented with it. I do not use intentionally overpressure ammunition.

2. It is possible to safely load without a chronograph? Seriously? You know that MILLIONS of reloaders have made BILLIONS of rounds of ammo for 70+ decades without the use of a chronograph. Most survived? The number of people who have been injured by bad reloads is statistically insignificant. What you are suggesting is unbelievably rare.

3. In fact I said the EXACT OPPOSITE. I said as long as a person follows the listed load data, there was no need for a chronograph ... because that ammo will be safe.

Glad to read all of this, and I appreciate the detail in your other lengthy post here. I think we're getting into the weeds, and maybe we both like an argument. It looks like we agree on the most important points: Reloading is serious business, even when staying in the boundaries of common published loads. New reloaders should be damn careful, and stick with common published loads.

We seem to disagree about

1. Reading primers is a good way to determine pressure problems for pistol cartridges (I disagree)
2. Using a chronograph is a better and safer way to reload, even for pistol cartridges (you disagree)


I don't want to derail this thread any further. I'm happy to take it up in a new thread if you want.