Amazing 308 Win load data!

W

Why not?

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So as not to hijack the 35 cal.com?? thread any further, here's some new, and some not so new, pretty amazing loads for the 308 Winchester.

From the Nosler website, both Partition and Accubond 200 gr bullets at way over 2500 fps! http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=15&b=30cal&s=307


Think about this.......a 200 gr at 2570 is more than 2930 ft lb of muzzle energy! As posted on the 35 cal.com thread, this easily qualifies the 308 for woods bison hunting up here.

Take a look a the 150 gr loads at over 3000 fps on the same page. Now there's a deer, sheep, and antelope load for you open country guys!


More great news using Re17. This is really amazing stuff: http://www.6mmbr.com/reloder17.html

How about 180s at 2640 out of a 22" barrel: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=25&cartridge=80


And, of course, there's the old standby 180 gr partition load from Nosler's No 1 manual, 180 gr Partition at 2700 fps using IMR 4064, that we have used for years.

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All you short action fans should be tickled with this stuff. Anyone else tried any of the new loads?

Ted
 
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Thanks for the "heads up" on this new powder, Why Not. I'll bet this powder could improve the ballistics of my 8mm Mauser using 200 grain bullets. I'm going to be on the look out for reloading data for this caliber using Reloader 17.
 
I would guess that it would really make the 8X57 wake up. I have some 225 gr bullets here that you could try. PM me your mailing address, and I'll send you a few if you like.

Note that the IMR 4350 load in the Nosler manual, 50 gr, also gives the 180 gr 2700 fps in the 308, and is the most accurate load as indicated by the asterisk beside it.

Ted
 
I saw those articles too Ted. The increase in performance with the 6XC is very impressive. I suspect the .260 Rem will also have a decent boost. I bet RL17 and the 130gr Swift ScII will be a great long range combo in the .260 Rem. Although it is a bit light for your neck of the woods!

You've had lots of experience with the 250gr Speer and the .358 Win; are you going to give that bullet a try with RL17?
 
This is nice that someone has actually authenticated what we have been doing and posting for over 2 years now.
When I posted getting 2600 plus fps from my 22 " barrelled 308 shooting 200 plus gr bullets I got called out repeatedly
I do not use RL17, according to the supplier of Reloader I use, it has not been approved for Canadian use not that that matters with supply being almost non existant here.
I have been using Vitavhouri N550 with 200 SMKs and 208 Amaxs with great results.
 
I don't remember you being called out about that, Rick. If I had seen that, I certainly would have supported you, as I have been using the 200 gr Speer in the 308 for more than twenty years.

Never got over 2600, but certainly close enough with Norma 204 that I would have come to your rescue. :D My latest venture being with a Stevens 200, factory 22" barrel, seated ten thou off the lands confirms what we already knew with our Husqvarnas. Just loaded some more today.

Care to give us some loads with N550 ? Starting loads would be a good place to begin. :)

Do you use moly with your loads?

Ted
 
1899 said:
I saw those articles too Ted. The increase in performance with the 6XC is very impressive. I suspect the .260 Rem will also have a decent boost. I bet RL17 and the 130gr Swift ScII will be a great long range combo in the .260 Rem. Although it is a bit light for your neck of the woods!

You've had lots of experience with the 250gr Speer and the .358 Win; are you going to give that bullet a try with RL17?
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Yessir, when I can find enough time to do all this! Where did this year go to?

Ted
 
Here's a quote from Camp Cook about Re17 in his 375 Ultra.

Camp Cook said:
Heavy recoil is heavy recoil but even with the 200fps velocity gain I really couldn't tell the difference between the loads and it is nowhere near the recoil of my 300gr loads.

Now I need to score 2 - 3 lbs more of RL17 so I don't run out this lbs is almost gone.
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Totally different cartridge, but same amazing velocity increase!

Ted
 
I was able to get my hands on some Re17. In my 6.5 Mystic (260improved variant), I was able to get a bit more speed out of some 139gr Lapuas but accuracy was at the same speeds as H4831SC.

however, pressures signs were HIGHER/more apparent then with H4831SC so I have not bothered doing more testing. Load density was also way less then with the H4831SC as can be expected with a 'faster' powder.

If you look at the data published by Alliant, Re17 is not shown to offer any more speed at conventional pressures. however, in certain circumstances it most certainly does. Best news is that a new factory will be built in the US to cover more powder options using this tech. Eventually, we should see a whole range of powders delivering more fps/gr of powder burnt.

wonder what the effect on the barrel will be?

SAAMI rates the 200gr bullet in a 308 at 2400 to 2500ish fps under standard test parameters (taken off Hodgdon site but pretty much every company offers similar data).

That is not saying we can't go faster :)

180's at over 2600fps is listed by a bunch of powders too and I bet you can get over 2700fps with some elevated pressure loads.

Jerry
 
I got a chronographed load of just over 2700 fps in my 30-06 Husqvarna, with 200 grain Speer or Nosler, with Norma 205.
An old Norma loading chart shows 2684 fps, 200 grain bullet, with a ½ grain less powder than I used, to get 2700+.
Ted, do you have any Norma powder left? I have no 205, but I do have 203 and 204.
The Norma loading chart shows loadings for the 9.3 x 62. They show 2624 for the 232 grain bullet, but with the very much faster burning Norma 201.
They show the same 201 powder to give the 286 grain bullet 2362 pps.
 
Bruce, I have only 204 left, and it is going fast. Used some more of it today to load up some bison loads for a lady up here, 180 partitions at over 2700 fps out of a 22" Stevens.

Jerry, you won't see much increase in velocity until you try Re17 with heavier bullets. I think you would see a big increase over 4831 with 160s. Having said that, I know that is not what you designed the Mystic for.

Ted
 
Why Not?, Re17 seems to respond in very heavy for cals situations but is it really doing this without elevated pressures??? Or is it just burning is such a way that pressures signs aren't as obvious in our rifles?

I know that in my Mystic, it was very peaky with stiff bolt lift, flatterned primers, etc were very obvious at more speed. I know another shooter that has achieved quite a bit more speed and it is working without any real issues in his rifle. Just depends I guess.

With how little powder I was using, going to a heavier bullet would have made the situation worse. In this case capacity/bore, Re 17 is too fast for my applications. Re17 works the best when it is operating on the slow side of desired powders. It has a relative burn rate between H4350 and H4831SC.

As for N550 308 loads, I checked a few manuals and found this in the most current Lee - 190gr bullet N550 maxed out at 2516fps at SAAMI Spec which can go as high as 60,000psi for the 308. Most loads hold to 58000psi

So a 200gr bullet should max out at a similar 2500fps (or a bit slower) for the same pressures. This is exactly what all other powders show in various load manuals.

Nosler manual does show sig. greater speeds with W760 which was very surprising.

As a reference, magnums are maxed by SAAMI at 63000psi although 65000psi is often worked without issue.

Proof pressure loads usually are in the 75 to 80000psi range. Many times these loads can be fired and the bolt operated without any real resistance. Continuous shooting at these pressure levels, the useable lifespan of an action is dramatically reduced before failure.

Getting more speed out of a standard cartridge has been done forever. Doing this while staying within SAAMI specs HASN'T!

Just be careful...

Jerry
 
I have taken it upon myself to post some extracts from a post that Why Not? made here on CGN on a thread about WhelenB's 35cal website.

Why not? said:
Andy, apparently the retardant is throughout the powder granules, instead of just on the outside of the powder. This prolongs the high pressure curve, so the bullet is accelerated by higher pressure for a longer period of time in the barrel. This can be easily seen on a pressure trace.

Here's a quote from the article on 6BR:

"How does RL17 produce so much added speed? There are two main reasons--unique burn properties and high load density. In its chemical properties, RL17 is like no other powder available in the U.S. market. Made in Switzerland by Nitrochemie, RL17 has a unique burn-rate controlling chemical that penetrates all the way through the kernels. Other common extruded powders have only a surface coating. Reloader 17's unique penetrating burn-rate regulator smooths out the pressure curve, allowing RL17 to maintain high energy for a longer period of time."

This results in amazing velocity increases.

"With the popular 6XC case, shooting 115gr bullets, most guys are topping out at about 2980-3000 fps with a max load of H4350 or H4831. In just-completed tests with RL17, German Salazar and Bob Jensen were able to achieve 3211 fps with the 115s at safe pressures. And with 107gr Sierra Match-Kings, German was able to increase his 6XC's max velocity from 3038 fps to a mind-blowing 3311 fps. That's a gain of 273 fps over his max load with H4831sc."


There is a lot of discussion about RL17 on other boards, which is where I first heard about it. Was going to try it in the 9.3X62 this weekend with some, but The Sportslodge here, is all out as of Thursday. Guys bought it up pretty quick once the word got out.
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Sounds reasonable - the part about smoothing out the pressure curve and adding more area (i.e. energy) under it. On reflection though, isn't that exactly what successively slower powders do? If you compare the pressure curve of Bullseye against RL25 you see this very clearly. Is the pressure curve for RL17 even flatter, but not as high?

There is no magic powder, just trying to understand what might be happening. Otherwise you have to conclude that the higher MV's are due to higher peak pressures.

Bought some RL17 today. ;)
 
No argument with your results, Jerry, however that is your experience with one rifle, your 6.5 Mystic. This thread is about loading the 308 Win, which is not a magic cartridge, but has been used and loaded for by scores of thousands of people. Having said that, from the 6BR article, "German (Salazar) was able to increase his 6XC's max velocity from 3038 fps to a mind-blowing 3311 fps. That's a gain of 273 fps over his max load with H4831sc." Again, this with heavy for caliber 107gr Sierra Match-Kings.

Did you read Ricks post, #6 on this thread? He has been getting these kinds of velocities for several years, as have a lot of others on different boards. Montana Marine on 24 hr routinely gets over 2500 with 200 MKs and 208 gr A-Maxes out of a 20 1/2" Remington factory barrel. He is a very experienced, careful handloader, who definitely knows what he is doing. Finally, for what it is worth, I have personally been loading 200 gr Speers in the 308 Win, for hunting, since the mid 80s, and never blown a primer. Had some pretty flat ones, but so have you, and you can reach 2500 long before that happens. :)

Obviously, if Nosler publicly posts a 200 gr load at 2571 fps, and other folks are getting velocities considerably over 2500 fps with 200 gr and heavier bullets with good case life and tight primer pockets, something is going on that we can all benefit from. That is the purpose of this thread.

As you well know, every barrel is different and gets different velocities with identical loads. PO Ackley told me one time that he made two barrels out on one very long blank. I forget the original length, but it doesn't really matter. He fitted, chambered and headspaced both barrels to the same action, using the same reamer, then proceeded to work up the loads.

One of the barrels got almost 70 fps more velocity than the other!

Therein lies the problem with loading data from one rifle to the next. My Stevens 223 Ackley gets over 3900 fps with 40 gr Ballistic Tips and 3000 with 75 gr A-Max out of its 22" barrel. Someone else may get more or less out of a 24" barrel. Actually, I have a suspicion that factory barrels get higher velocity than the ultra-smooth custom tubes. Would be interested on your experience in this regard.

The Stevens 308 I am working the loads up for right now, has a factory chamber with a fairly long throat. I wouldn't dream of shooting the same loads in a match rifle with tighter chamber and minimum throat. For the same reason, I don't post the loads here.

To sum it all up, every rifle is a law unto itself. We all need to always be careful when handloading. Thanks for the heads up!

Hold hard, and breathe easy.

Ted
 
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Andy said:
I have taken it upon myself to post some extracts from a post that Why Not? made here on CGN on a thread about WhelenB's 35cal website.



Sounds reasonable - the part about smoothing out the pressure curve and adding more area (i.e. energy) under it. On reflection though, isn't that exactly what successively slower powders do? If you compare the pressure curve of Bullseye against RL25 you see this very clearly. Is the pressure curve for RL17 even flatter, but not as high?

There is no magic powder, just trying to understand what might be happening. Otherwise you have to conclude that the higher MV's are due to higher peak pressures.

Bought some RL17 today. ;)
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Perhaps it is a "variable" rate of burn: starts fast and then slows, or the other was around. There was some reloading info on an African site that mixed two powders (I know, I know); There must have been a reason for doing that.
 
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