American Precision Arms "Paragon"

Like I said in an earlier post, it is a cool rifle and the OP should be thanked for posting. As to the tests, the maker is marketing the rifle and it is a neat attention-grabbing way to do so and I suspect that an AI, TRG or PGW would survive the same tests just as well. Will the Paragon, AI, TRG or Coyote stand up to the kind of abuse our grandfathers or great grandfathers put their Lee-Enfields or Mausers through in the great conflicts of the 20th Century ? I doubt it but that isn't an apples to apples comparison - the aforementioned battle rifles were exactly that whereas the modern rifles quoted are precision instruments made tough enough to withstand military deployment.
 
All I'm getting at Jerry is that is easy to say that it's easy to replicate and a savage or Stevens can be made to shoot that well and sightrons are great and stuff but.....when you say it's easy to replicate and an axis can shoot great and a sightron is equal in the accuracy department....you don't need that this will "work" fine.....and then it comes down to the sightron won't hold up....and the axis might not hold the same groups (there are 3-4 more vids on YouTube and in most he has close ups of groups...Snipershide has a more indepth thread then ours).

My pint is give credit where it's due. You may never buy it, never spend that type of coin on a rig because you don't need it for that purpose but compare apples to apples....an axis with a sightron won't take half of what he did to that rifle....and rightly so, he designed it to take a beating and used stuff designed to take a beating. It's totally unrealistic to put an axis and sightron in that field because they weren't designed for that, and there is nothing wrong for with that. This was a thread showcasing a rifle that was built with a purpose, shoots accurately and to take a beating if required. If your in the sandbox and it hits the dirt off your hummer at 60km or falls of a cliff and rolls down, run a bore snake through to make sure your bore is clear and bang, hit your target. That's what this was about, not which is better, a paragon or an axis.

So again, great rifle, I would use one if I had that type of coin to throw around, but I don't anymore, wife holds the wallet for most of the time and would probably have a heart attack of she new my total investment in guns already. Like it, don't like it but don't deny the quality that was put into it or disrespect the rifle or the smith by comparing it to an obviously lesser product....
 
Tomochan....100% agree. Comparing a paragon to an AI, pgw, trg....all in the same realm and totally realistic and way more balanced.
 
c4pyro said:
Tomochan....100% agree. Comparing a paragon to an AI, pgw, trg....all in the same realm and totally realistic and way more balanced.
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Thanks 'pyro. I think I understand the point Jerry is trying to make but he sometimes and I'm sure unintentionally comes across as a wee bit promotional of the savage/stevens/sightron combo and I think that's what has happened here.
 
Yup....I know he is selling just like Jared is, and it's cool.

I would love to see a hardcore testing of all the big name rifles...APA, AI, Tacops, GAP, KMW -Terry cross, PGW, Blackops-skunkworks....trg, HS, etc....to many to name but you get my point..
 
FYI, I already agreed the Sightron is not up to being beat on.

I don't sell rifles and only three parts for the Axis. The rifle was merely an indicator of a test mule. If so inclined, the Ruger american would be another candidate of the new gen plastic fantastic rifles. Nothing available for this rifle. So my points are most certainly not business motivated.

Where this rig falls short is in the use of a low tolerance action. Given its position as a working rifle, locking up when dirty is not likely to be desired.

This is where the AI, TRG and PGW have a huge advantage. They were designed from the ground up to function when dirty and for those that don't get to call a time out and strip their rig down for a clean up when at work.

If you can find it, Barrett put out an article on their design of the MRAD rifle. One of the failures of their orig rifle was when the rifles were subjected to a helo test. Apparentlly, the rifles are put near where a helo lands and the rifles are forced to ingest all the dirt that is kicked up. If the rifles are unable to function with only basic service, they are a fail and tossed from the test. The first Barrett trigger ingested too much dirt and would not stay cocked.

How's that for nasty environment?

In precision rifles, there is always a lot of compromise. Accuracy vs function vs weight vs durability.

In working rifles, those priorities are usually different.

Jerry


300m, 223/90gr - video was sped up. since you wanted to see video of shooting. Shot 2 was a pick up in wind. 4th shot was pulled low to check vertical and the shot went where aimed. FTR with load from Raton. At least we have part of the challenge demonstrated.
 
well since i am an owner of some high-end AI rifles, Weathey Actioned custom builds, and many many Savage and rem custom builds..
In my eyes, you get what you paid for upto certain cost.. more of it is their name brand that has their logo Stamped on.

And also very curious of how Savages and stevens would handle the beating """"so Here is my Propostion To jerry"""""". Since as you know, i do travel to Okanagan every few month, I would like to do the test with ya with one of my build and show the CGN'ers if the Cheap stock and wimpy bolt action would do its part or Bust lol.

Its a Savage model 12 action, bull barrel, Hs Precision stock, Bushnell Elite tactical fixed 10x42 on. The build costed me only $1200 so nothing fancy at all.
If you are interested on Beating one of my rifle with me, give me a PM and lets go try to end its life. Well.. if it does die on us... Give me at least few dollars off another barrel and rings will ya?? hahaha


Edit, I might have to stop by kelowna on sunday afternoon and if you really want to trash one of my rifle, we can this sunday. let me know by tonight if you do .
 
In the tests I have planned, the goal is to simulate tough conditions that might be experienced while in the field. I can destroy anything but what would that prove. I am unaware of any rifle that will keep together when meeting a telephone pole after a full swing. I will also not bother testing the durability of non ruggedised scopes. Again, what would it prove.

the goal is to see if a plastic fantastic rifle can survive getting dirty and roughed up while providing acceptable function/ accuracy throughout. Tough handling but not intentionally destructive. In the same tone of the videos here.

To be a success, the test rifle must maintain accuracy. It must continue to function - cycle, feed and eject. The safety must continue to keep the gun from misfiring.

Since there is so much negative sentiment, I will take a Stevens plastic stock, ballast it to heavy rifle weight and beat on it until it does fail. wonder what it will take?

I doubt there is a forum that I should post it in so will put it in my dealer forum and website. Yes, this would be promotional but I am spending the money :)

I would be very happy if you want to come on out and let your rifle get roughed up. It would make for a very fun day. First, test fire the rifle and see how good you can make it work. Bed it, work up a good load, see what it can do now. Then we will tracks its decline as things get roughed up. maybe it survives. maybe it ends up as a pile of smoking junk

At no point will a rifle be fired while there are obstructions in the bore. or fired when there is an obvious safety risk. That would just be stupid and again, serve no purpose.

It continues to snow so the LR spot will be snowed in pretty quick. But we can do some 200m testing if that remains acceptable as proof of performance?

The goals will be to see if function, safety and performance can be maintained after some very rough handling.

One of the tests will be a drop test on steroids. I have always wondered if my rifle safety could handle being seriously bumped.. I'll know soon enough.

Jerry
 
lol I just wanted to do the exact same test as this vid and compare how my $1000 rifle would stand. I just built it and went to the range testing 44.5 Varget with 168 match hornady.
seems to shoot 12" metal plate @ 340 yards everytime so its not too crappy. We can do some load testing and get it accruate. My scope is a junk and the rings are also pretty bad so if you want to use my ring and scope for fun, go ahead, but if you wanna provide the opitcs and rings for you to test on whatever it is. it will also work.

I Still have the Cheap Synthetic stock that came with model 12 if we want to use that rather than HS.

let me know when is usually good for you and we will have a play date lol.


This is the build id like to use into good use to compair if its upto par with high-end rifles and i am sure many people are curious of how it will stand out while getting some bush time.

savagem12_zpsdbca9a74.jpg


This one is is Factory everything except stock. Other one might be too modified and i kind of want to know "stock" rifles would handle in rough conditions. Maybe this is getting off topic with the thread so ill stop now..

But for those people that are really curious about how Cheap factory rifles can take abuse in the bush and survive, I'll keep everyone posted after talking over it with jerry.
 
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I think we can follow this videos very nicely.

vid 1 - soak test. As I said, not worth repeating cause corrosion isn't going to happen in 30mins no matter the rifle

vid 2 - drag for 400ish yds - this I will do.

Vid 3 -swivel stud tear out. not worth repeating cause there is no point. The stud will not support a grown adult and building a godzilla stud is of little benefit - skip. I don't even consider the tear out a fail. Like saying a size 11 foot doesn't fit in a size 9 boot - DUH. I think a smarter test would have been to suspend the shooter with the rifle. No doubt it, or any heavy barrel rifle would pass. Steel is steel and support the weight BUT if the harness is put around the barrel, it would bend the barrel, ANY barrel so again, not proving anything we don't already know.

Unless you plan on using your rifle to repel down a mountain, little point in this test. And if you need to use a rifle to save your butt, use it. It will work and it will likely be bent.... BUT are out of a really bad situation.

Vid 4 - Sorry, no explosives where I live :) But I do like the LR toss. This we were going to do anyways. that looks fun

vid 5 - deep cold. I had a great laugh at this one cause Canadians know all about frozen rifles. Again, given the time of year, this would have happened anyways. I am going to add a twist in this test cause it is something we will experience in the great white north. Stay tuned for that.

Vid 6 - shooting in the blowing dust. That was something I was going to do in a modified way. Note that the dust is stopped before the rifle is cycled. In a dust storm, that option wouldn't be possible. The action is getting tight - no surprise there. This is a test that looks easy to replicate but can offer a real safety concern. If dust and dirt collect on the ammo, you have a jam. That is not a fault of the rifle with a tight chamber and properly fitted ammo. Any rifle with this same set up will fail.

I think a better test would have been to keep cycling the action WITHOUT ammo and see when the action stops moving. I don't expect much from any tight fit action.

To introduce sand and see when the trigger stops functioning. This is the archilles heel of most every rifle and a huge reason working rifles usually have OPEN trigger mechs.

Why WWI and WWII rifles have such generous chambers and their ammo undersized. Battle Rattle is there for this very reason. So are wobbly bolts in their raceway.

IF you could get the action closed on dirty ammo and fire, that could be dangerous so......

cycling test sure. Firing test - not without cleaning the ammo and chamber. He is much braver then I. The only thing I will show is the affect of sand on the action for cycling. I WILL NOT BE CYCLING DIRTY AMMO INTO MY RIFLE. We know all too well what can happen.

vid 7 is a scope endorsement and will not be replicated.

vid 8 change the surface, bend the barrel, destroy the rifle... DUH. again, we are not proving anything worthwhile. However, the roll over test WILL be performed on a Stevens stock as part of its destruction cycle. AND we will have rocks not a soft grassy field.

I guess the final video will involve a telephone pole or 10" Yellow pine tree? We know we can destroy something so we are proving nothing new. the goal is to see if a rifle can survive harsh conditions realistic to field use.

And how much abuse a plastic fantastic stock can survive.

Try and get some baseline testing over the holidays.

Stay tuned.

Jerry
 
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All the tests are complete and posted as suggested.

We have the low and high toss, the 2x200yds pull including 1 pull strapped to the trigger guard, the sand test and the ice cube (which also became a soak test).

Except for a small part that broke (bolt realease tab), the Axis has survived handily.

Enjoy and Happy Holidays.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
I did enjoy seeing the drag through the grassy field. That was definitely a good way to show the durability of the stock and scope. Notice that the action was a bit stiff to open the first time? doubt it would survive living in a trench ala early 1900's.

Given that the barrel was cleaned between tests, the bore condition was retained.

So, we know the scope is robust and the manners stock is sound. However, you can duplicate the same result with most any modern action and ALL WWI and WWII bolt rifles (the wood stock may crack but the action will cycle and fire) and a good assortment of Eastern European semis.

Grab a Savage Axis and drag it through the weeds, and I bet it still functions just fine. It was a grass field - rocky gravel road would likely distroy any rifle including the test rifle. USO still uses glass in the scope and that is not rock proof.

Oh, when he was tosses the rifle onto the ground, did the trigger trip? He cycles the rifle instead of safety off, pull trigger as one might have to do if a rifle took a bad fall but still needed to function.

grab an enfield P action and hammer the rifle to destruction - that safety will not let go.

I am not trying to throw cold water on what he is trying to do but all of this was resolved a good long time ago.

As for the soak test in the lake, many a hunting rifle have been the in drink only to live to tell the tale. In fact there was a Leupold scope add from years back where a hunter retreived his rifle in the spring after the ice melted to find the scope still functioning just fine. Water is no longer a serious test of quality gear.

Take any quality scope and throw it into a sink full of water and leave it. I bet that most will survive just fine. I know my Sightrons did just fine being drenched in a Chilliwack downpour for 5 hours.

We have plenty of excellent ways to protect the metal from corrosion. I assume he dried the rifle before firing?

Nomex on :)

Jerry

PS, I am very impressed with the folding stock. That is a truly solid and well built product. hinge didn't let go and the comb didn't tear off. Nice.
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Do you really like the sightroms Jerry? I was wondering because I'm thinkin of coming out of my comfort box and grabbing one.
 
For optics and tracking, the Sightrons are my goto scope. As they say, I sell Sightrons cause I USE them.

On all my rifles at this time. If there is a better value, I will certainly investigate but not in Canada at this time.

And yes, I have looked through a wide range of product and would sell them if I felt they offered my customers good value.

These are not ruggedised scopes so if you need a scope that can handle rough treatment ie dragged through the countryside bouncing over sticks and rocks, these are not the scopes for you.

For hunting and competition, I feel they offer many features that exceed product costing a whole lot more.

If you are near the OK valley, happy to let you look through them.

Jerry

Jerry
 
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