I just got a Gew 88 commision rifle and part of the deal was a pile of 8x57. The ammo is post war, IDF maybe. I pretty sure the guy was shooting this in the 88. The rifle is stamped with a "S" at the correct spot indicating .323" bore. My question is this; is post war ammo too hot for these old rifles? I do have the option of hand loading for this piece. What does the 88's like? The bore is in great shape and I'm keen to try it out!
Ammo for Gew88
- Thread starter r.fallon
- Start date
Keeping in mind that we do not know exactly what post-war ammo we are talking about, I am going have to say Don't Do It. GEW88 are famously weaker than 98s, and IDF loads will be zippy. Mild handloads are the ticket for a collectible piece more than a century old. Remington hunting ammo (green-and-yellow) would be safe too.
Original loading for the 1888 rifle utilised a 227-grain bullet at just short of 2100 ft/sec.
The 1904 loading, which is the original JS loading, shot a 154-grain flat-based, steel-jacketed bullet at 2881 ft/sec from the 29-inch tube. Your riffle should be safe for this loading.
The later loading with the 196-grain slug at 2700-and-odd was originally the ANTI-TANK loading for this cartridge. Pressures are 'WAY up there. Also nice high pressures with the SmK loading with the 178-grain steel-cored slug, which was cheaper to make than the lead-cored variety, especially when you are running short of lead.
Surplus ammo: that corrosive-primed Turkish stuff is the proper loading for your rifle. If you can find some of the Turk ammo, you put the powder charges and slugs into fresh primed empties, thus avoiding the salty residue that rusts your bore. This can be quite startlingly accurate.... if you can find some Turk ammo to play with.
The Portuguese M-937 loading is the JsS (anti-tank) loading and I would not pur it through a rifle that I like, although I HAVE done it and still have all my fingers and my rifle still has its chamber. The only really hateful thing about ignoring this ammo is that it is non-corrosive and it is just so DARNED accurate!
The Czech surplus loads that came in the 15-round boxes are the SmK loading: 178 grain slugs, pressures likely were high when the stuff was new.
For trying out your old rifle, use modern American factory loads. They have a 170-grain bullet and they will afford you the experience of shooting your antique. Once you have a supply of nice modern brass, you can start looking for some of those nice 154-grain .323" slugs and roll your own: double the fun and all for the same price!
BTW, these often had unit markings on the front barrel-band. Once ran into one marked to the First Infantry Regiment! Couldn't keep it, though!
Have fun!
The 1904 loading, which is the original JS loading, shot a 154-grain flat-based, steel-jacketed bullet at 2881 ft/sec from the 29-inch tube. Your riffle should be safe for this loading.
The later loading with the 196-grain slug at 2700-and-odd was originally the ANTI-TANK loading for this cartridge. Pressures are 'WAY up there. Also nice high pressures with the SmK loading with the 178-grain steel-cored slug, which was cheaper to make than the lead-cored variety, especially when you are running short of lead.
Surplus ammo: that corrosive-primed Turkish stuff is the proper loading for your rifle. If you can find some of the Turk ammo, you put the powder charges and slugs into fresh primed empties, thus avoiding the salty residue that rusts your bore. This can be quite startlingly accurate.... if you can find some Turk ammo to play with.
The Portuguese M-937 loading is the JsS (anti-tank) loading and I would not pur it through a rifle that I like, although I HAVE done it and still have all my fingers and my rifle still has its chamber. The only really hateful thing about ignoring this ammo is that it is non-corrosive and it is just so DARNED accurate!
The Czech surplus loads that came in the 15-round boxes are the SmK loading: 178 grain slugs, pressures likely were high when the stuff was new.
For trying out your old rifle, use modern American factory loads. They have a 170-grain bullet and they will afford you the experience of shooting your antique. Once you have a supply of nice modern brass, you can start looking for some of those nice 154-grain .323" slugs and roll your own: double the fun and all for the same price!
BTW, these often had unit markings on the front barrel-band. Once ran into one marked to the First Infantry Regiment! Couldn't keep it, though!
Have fun!
An "S" stamp does not always guarantee a .323 groove in your barrel. My 1890 Erfurt has the "S" stamp but the bore slugged out to .321 on the grooves. The barrel on mine is the original one from 1890 and is not stepped. She has a Turkish past and it is tempting to use .323 hand-loaded cartridges considering the Turks would have used similar ammo but I don't want to risk it considering her age.
If you do decide to shoot her with that ammo you got, report back, I would be interested in the results.
If you do decide to shoot her with that ammo you got, report back, I would be interested in the results.
The ammo that I got is Czech produced IDF surplus. So no, I don't think I'll be shooting this in the 88 but, this stuff should be excellent in RC 98. I'll post a pic box of the ammo and head stamp later.
The barrel has a jacket/shrould over it, and the only mark on the barrel bands is a gothic f(?) with a crown over it forward band. Lower band has a 44 on it, mismatched SN? The bolt is Turk but I can't find any Arabic or moon stamps on the rifle its self. (Sorry to anyone that is Turkish. I know that Turk is not considered an Arab country. I just used it to describe the Turkish style of writing for lack of a better word.
)
The barrel has a jacket/shrould over it, and the only mark on the barrel bands is a gothic f(?) with a crown over it forward band. Lower band has a 44 on it, mismatched SN? The bolt is Turk but I can't find any Arabic or moon stamps on the rifle its self. (Sorry to anyone that is Turkish. I know that Turk is not considered an Arab country. I just used it to describe the Turkish style of writing for lack of a better word.
)The Czech ammo should work just fine in your RC 98, just don't forget to clean it afterwards as I am sure it has corrosive primers in it.
Sounds like your 88 was sent to Turkey (along with many others, including my Erfurt 1890, from 1916 to 1918) to fill short falls in their armaments. Many of these 88s, from what I read, were used against the British forces until the capitulation of the Ottoman empire in November 1918 and some of these were even later used in the 1920s against (I think) Greek forces intent on reclaiming territory from the former Ottoman empire. These 88s will normally have the rear sight re-stamped in Arabic numerals and will generally have a Czech replacement bolt (as the British forces simply removed the original bolts instead of taking the rifles back with them). 88s that have blued receivers and/or bolts and re-blued barrel jackets and trigger guards are ones that were re-worked in the 1930s when Turkey sought to modernize its armaments hold. These 88s will generally have the Turkish crescent moon stamped just above the original German manufacture stamp. Some 88s may have had their markings scrubbed off and gone as far as being converted to Turfek 1935. This is basically a Gewehr 88 that has been modified by Turkey to more resemble their Model 1903s. Aside from the magazine, the action, and the bolt, just about everything has been changed. These former 88s will generally have all the German markings scrubbed off and Turkish ones stamped in their place including the year of modification and the arsenal that did it but sometimes you may find ones with their German markings intact. The rear sight was also re-stamped in European numerals as Turkey had made the switch to this in the 1930s. It has been made mention to me that the Gewehr 88s were used by Turkey as a training rifle up until the 1970s! Now thats what I call a service rifle.
As for your 88, fallon, the Germans stamped the last two digits of the serial number on the associated parts minus any suffix (i.e. rear band). Have a look at your full serial and the last two digits to see if they match. "7.92" stamped on the left side of the rear sight base (providing the barrel is the original matching one along with the barrel jacket) is the land measurement as measured by the Germans when the rifle was built. In this case, it means the lands came out to ~0.311".
Hope this helps you out.
If you have some pictures, I would be interested in seeing some shots of your rifle for comparison to my own and to others I have seen.
Sounds like your 88 was sent to Turkey (along with many others, including my Erfurt 1890, from 1916 to 1918) to fill short falls in their armaments. Many of these 88s, from what I read, were used against the British forces until the capitulation of the Ottoman empire in November 1918 and some of these were even later used in the 1920s against (I think) Greek forces intent on reclaiming territory from the former Ottoman empire. These 88s will normally have the rear sight re-stamped in Arabic numerals and will generally have a Czech replacement bolt (as the British forces simply removed the original bolts instead of taking the rifles back with them). 88s that have blued receivers and/or bolts and re-blued barrel jackets and trigger guards are ones that were re-worked in the 1930s when Turkey sought to modernize its armaments hold. These 88s will generally have the Turkish crescent moon stamped just above the original German manufacture stamp. Some 88s may have had their markings scrubbed off and gone as far as being converted to Turfek 1935. This is basically a Gewehr 88 that has been modified by Turkey to more resemble their Model 1903s. Aside from the magazine, the action, and the bolt, just about everything has been changed. These former 88s will generally have all the German markings scrubbed off and Turkish ones stamped in their place including the year of modification and the arsenal that did it but sometimes you may find ones with their German markings intact. The rear sight was also re-stamped in European numerals as Turkey had made the switch to this in the 1930s. It has been made mention to me that the Gewehr 88s were used by Turkey as a training rifle up until the 1970s! Now thats what I call a service rifle.
As for your 88, fallon, the Germans stamped the last two digits of the serial number on the associated parts minus any suffix (i.e. rear band). Have a look at your full serial and the last two digits to see if they match. "7.92" stamped on the left side of the rear sight base (providing the barrel is the original matching one along with the barrel jacket) is the land measurement as measured by the Germans when the rifle was built. In this case, it means the lands came out to ~0.311".
Hope this helps you out.
If you have some pictures, I would be interested in seeing some shots of your rifle for comparison to my own and to others I have seen.
It's not an insult. Turkey used the Turkish language, but they used it with the Arabic alphabet and numerals. Kemal Ataturk made the changeover to the modified Roman alphabet AFTER the Great War had become history.
BTW, sometimes you will run into one of Johnny Turk's rifles with what looks like an "O" on the top of the bolt knob. Look closer. It's a star and crescent!
These critters are the final remnants (that you can actually own) of the old Ottoman Empire. They deserve to be treated with respect..... and shot with good ammo. That usually means staying away from old Czech corrosive stuff, too!
Handloading is half the fun of the game: knowing that YOU can craft ammo that will make your century-old surplus rifle shoot like the champion she was.... 100 years ago.
BTW, sometimes you will run into one of Johnny Turk's rifles with what looks like an "O" on the top of the bolt knob. Look closer. It's a star and crescent!
These critters are the final remnants (that you can actually own) of the old Ottoman Empire. They deserve to be treated with respect..... and shot with good ammo. That usually means staying away from old Czech corrosive stuff, too!
Handloading is half the fun of the game: knowing that YOU can craft ammo that will make your century-old surplus rifle shoot like the champion she was.... 100 years ago.
The only other place I have seen Turk markings is on the receiver an the rear sight.
Turk:
German:
Very nice, your German sight has the rear sight leaf still on it, a tough find for 88s as this piece was discharged following the adoption of the Spitzer round in 1905 I believe.
It is interesting to note that the size of the adjustment tab appears to be different between the two rear sights.
The rear sight on my 88/05 is just like the re-stamped Turkish one. The rear sight matches the rifle and it is quite interesting to note the new range calibration notches that were cut into the sides of the rear sight.
My old friend Sgt Angus Kellie was with 380 Siege Bty, 51st Div Arty, PEF from Suez to Gaza and on to Jerusalem and Armageddon and all the way to Damascus.
He said that they piled the captured Turk rifles and set them on fire because they were taking Johnny Turk captive but they didn't have enough troops to guard him. So they would turn Johnny Turk loose to go home.... and just burn the rifles. He said that the Turkish Mausers were "beautiful rifles, and they burned beautifully". He carried one for a while but it didn't fit the brackets on the limber of his 6-inch How, so he eventually got rid of it. Said it was a nice rifle and very accurate. They were using Holt tractors (we would call them Cats: same company) to pull their guns: big bullwheel in front and tracks behind.... good artillery tractors and they would go over or through anything.
He said that they piled the captured Turk rifles and set them on fire because they were taking Johnny Turk captive but they didn't have enough troops to guard him. So they would turn Johnny Turk loose to go home.... and just burn the rifles. He said that the Turkish Mausers were "beautiful rifles, and they burned beautifully". He carried one for a while but it didn't fit the brackets on the limber of his 6-inch How, so he eventually got rid of it. Said it was a nice rifle and very accurate. They were using Holt tractors (we would call them Cats: same company) to pull their guns: big bullwheel in front and tracks behind.... good artillery tractors and they would go over or through anything.
Very nice! Loewe made rifle as well. Looks like a re-worked 88 by the Turks. Looks like a Czech replacement bolt as well. The rear sight appears to be re-stamped in Roman numerals ? Is she unit marked ? How are the numbers overall in regards to matching the receiver ? Nice magazine cover as well, mine is stamped with the same mark and same year but the four dimples are not present on mine.
Again, very beautiful, thanks for sharing.
Again, very beautiful, thanks for sharing.
The numbers we use are CALLED Arabic but they ain't. They are a modified form of Arabic (very modified) but we call them that because we stole them from the Arabs back during the Crusades.
No matter, the Arabs originally stole them from India anyway, modded them for their own purposes.
All three are decimal systems, all three use positional notation and the concept of 'zero' (very important) and all three stem from a common ancestor....... much as Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician and Hebrew all stem from a common ancestor, although you'd never know it from the last 3200 years of fighting.
No matter, the Arabs originally stole them from India anyway, modded them for their own purposes.
All three are decimal systems, all three use positional notation and the concept of 'zero' (very important) and all three stem from a common ancestor....... much as Arabic, Aramaic, Phoenician and Hebrew all stem from a common ancestor, although you'd never know it from the last 3200 years of fighting.
I will have to correct myself, I was in-correct when refering to Roman numerals. What I meant was there is the chance the rear stamp may have been re-stamped in the the late 20s, early 30s back to the number system we are familiar with and this was common with Gewehr 88s that were re-worked during this period. Nothing wrong with it really, makes sighting in a lot easier unless you get use to 88s that have the Turkish numerals. The rear sight on my 88/05 still has the Turkish numerals on it and the numbers translate to sighting distances graduated from 400m to 2000m in 100m increments.
