Makko_Shark
CGN Regular
- Location
- Burlington
Typically Canadian, thump your chest about what a great country it is, then sell out a neighbour to save a $. We as a country have to learn to start putting our money where our big mouths are.
AMMO in Canada...
- Thread starter ghostntheshell
- Start date
Typically Canadian, thump your chest about what a great country it is, then sell out a neighbour to save a $. We as a country have to learn to start putting our money where our big mouths are.
In regards to a Canadian supplier going bust is the past: Saving 50 cents is no longer the issue. Cost does nto seem to be the issue at all is. Supply is.
I would pay a premium price for 00 buck or 9mm JHPs simply because you can't find them where I live. You can't even order them from site sponsors. You may get lucky a couple of times a year but for the most part ammo is not easy to find.
I would pay a premium price for 00 buck or 9mm JHPs simply because you can't find them where I live. You can't even order them from site sponsors. You may get lucky a couple of times a year but for the most part ammo is not easy to find.
For ease of discussion, in regards to 54r ammo.....
I think the issue is that we are seeing Russian 7.62x54r in green tins sold in the US, and those same marked Russian tins appear to be selling in Canada for twice the price. For example:
www.frontierfirearms.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_500_837&products_id=4395
http://ammoseek.com/?gun=rifle&cal=277&grains=0&mfg=&keywords=&sortby=cpr
I am not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to have a discussion based on what we see. We consumers could understand paying alittle more, but we aren't aware how double the price is determined. Just like most firearms, in Canada we pay more than our US counterparts for the same item (not double the price mind you). Also with cars, the same new car off the lot, domestic or foreign, is often priced lower in the US (for no real apparent reason to the Canadian consumer). I guess Canadian pricing is mysterious to us, and we understand vendors/retailers need to make money, we just don't know how some goods get so much more price added.
I think the issue is that we are seeing Russian 7.62x54r in green tins sold in the US, and those same marked Russian tins appear to be selling in Canada for twice the price. For example:
www.frontierfirearms.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_500_837&products_id=4395
http://ammoseek.com/?gun=rifle&cal=277&grains=0&mfg=&keywords=&sortby=cpr
I am not accusing anyone of anything, just trying to have a discussion based on what we see. We consumers could understand paying alittle more, but we aren't aware how double the price is determined. Just like most firearms, in Canada we pay more than our US counterparts for the same item (not double the price mind you). Also with cars, the same new car off the lot, domestic or foreign, is often priced lower in the US (for no real apparent reason to the Canadian consumer). I guess Canadian pricing is mysterious to us, and we understand vendors/retailers need to make money, we just don't know how some goods get so much more price added.
While I would agree with this for the most part, I see lots of #####ing when one dealer has a low price on something (ammo and other stuff) but no stock, while another dealer has the item in stock at a higher price. The people complaining seem to expect the higher priced dealer to price match the lower one or they will not buy the item, even though it is not actually available at the lower price.
I would expect any Canadian ammo manufacturer would face the same complaints today if they produced ammo that wasn't completely price competitive with US supplied ammo.
Mark
ghostntheshell
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- GTA ONTARIO
I see this is a sensitive topic for a lot of people, and for valid reasons.
I certainly hope to see cheaper ammo, and I would love to see Canadian ammo.
I certainly hope to see cheaper ammo, and I would love to see Canadian ammo.
The price difference for the same ammo is, indeed, weird. I guess the current pricing of the Russian X54 is based on the last price of Czech x54. The last batch of surplus x54 (Czech) sold out fairly fast at (roughly) the same price, so why would the dealers/importer(s) sell the new stuff cheaper? Common sense tells me that the Russian x54 will still sell at this price.
And before someone comes here and tries to argue that there are SIGNIFICANTLY higher costs of importing same ammo into Canada, tell me this: Why did the Czech x39 sell for roughly the same price in Canada as it did in US? Same ammo, same period, before "steel core" x39 was banned there.
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angrysoldier
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- under your bed
thanks john, my goal is not to under cut anyone. i just want to prove it can be done for alot less. how about 100 ae 55 grain black box for 25.99 a box? see it can be done, it just takes will and a bit of money behind it. ill be sent up soon, just have to get the paper work finished. and finish building my storage building.
STEINER;
"I think the issue is that we are seeing Russian 7.62x54r in green tins sold in the US, and those same marked Russian tins appear to be selling in Canada for twice the price."
Very good question, OK lets say group X in the USA approach an agent for the Ukraine Government to purchase 50-60 million rds
And then our firm buys a few million rds, which one gets the better price ??
Another factor is shipping, we just purchased and sold lot of ammo, there were 30 containers going to the US price per container under $4,000 each
two containersd coming to Canada just over $8,000.each
This very same deal in the US ,trucking the containers 200 miles from the port to our clients facility cost us $125.each Here in Canada 100 kilometers cost us $500. per container....
My US client pays only a few dollars for his storage permits, we pay thousands for our bunkers....
It goes on and on....
And we have only covered a small portion of the extra costs....
John
"I think the issue is that we are seeing Russian 7.62x54r in green tins sold in the US, and those same marked Russian tins appear to be selling in Canada for twice the price."
Very good question, OK lets say group X in the USA approach an agent for the Ukraine Government to purchase 50-60 million rds
And then our firm buys a few million rds, which one gets the better price ??
Another factor is shipping, we just purchased and sold lot of ammo, there were 30 containers going to the US price per container under $4,000 each
two containersd coming to Canada just over $8,000.each
This very same deal in the US ,trucking the containers 200 miles from the port to our clients facility cost us $125.each Here in Canada 100 kilometers cost us $500. per container....
My US client pays only a few dollars for his storage permits, we pay thousands for our bunkers....
It goes on and on....
And we have only covered a small portion of the extra costs....
John
Yeah, they'd probably do alright even if they just started producing .223 for now.
John,
Thanks for sharing info and giving us some insight into the extra costs involved for the CDN market. We know you often offer some of the lowest prices on the Canadian market, so thank you and bring in what you can.
The solution to this is easy, though it will not quickly fix the past, if ever: Support your local business first, support Canadian jobs and manufacturing second. And remain united without a dollar value, because being united to ##### after the fact makes us stupid and complacent. We've had Canadian makers of what we wanted but we didn't support them. We've had firearm laws the way we liked them but we didn't support the cause, and passionate minority anti-groups, who were many times fewer walked all over us and made changes that suited their cause and not ours.
The harsh reality is that we as Canadians deserve what we have, as with the high prices that go with them. Going forward: Support Canadian business and Support your cause with both passion and financial interest. Every dime you save at Walmart ends a Canadian job. Every dollar you save on a product from another country closes a Canadian factory. We tell ourselves this all the time, but Walmart is opened 24 hours a day in some places, with customers. Duhh! How much more obvious does it get?
The harsh reality is that we as Canadians deserve what we have, as with the high prices that go with them. Going forward: Support Canadian business and Support your cause with both passion and financial interest. Every dime you save at Walmart ends a Canadian job. Every dollar you save on a product from another country closes a Canadian factory. We tell ourselves this all the time, but Walmart is opened 24 hours a day in some places, with customers. Duhh! How much more obvious does it get?
P0WERWAGON
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- burnaby BC كافر
canadian shooters are the cheapest bunch priks i have ever seen. they go out of their way to save $1 and ##### that the price is so much more than the US price.
but they never get something themselves from the states to prove how cheap it can be done for! mostly because they know they can't.
my hat off to ALL canadian firearms business that have to put up with azholes like me!!
but they never get something themselves from the states to prove how cheap it can be done for! mostly because they know they can't.
my hat off to ALL canadian firearms business that have to put up with azholes like me!!
That sucks. Guess we owe more gratitude to the Canadian importers who keep the prices as competitive as they can.
Thank you!
Agreed!
Hotwheels81
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- South of GP
There is a huge diffrence between new and surplus ammo production costs FWIW
And to think that new mfg .223, 7.62, x54, 8mm etc etc ammo will hit the shelf at a lower cost then 20+ yr old stock is a fantasy... I can understand how it would be nice to be able to get some hard to find stuff but if the bottom dollar is the motivation then buy a nice reloading setup and stop paying the insurance and packaging costs all companys pass on to the end user.
I noticed over the holidays that the americans dont have it as good as some of you let on, at bass pro in Mesa AZ winchester AA target is $80+ a flat, 9mm is $60+ for 250rnd bulk packs and most hunting ammo is par with canadian prices! Surplus ammo prices are not a fair representation of the whole market when canada is a country of 30mil with 3 million firearms owners and the USA is a country of 300 million with a higher percentage of arms per person..... They have buying power we simply cant match.
My biggest eye opener was a savage .308 at walmart was $340 while the same rifle here sells around the $600 mark with tax.... Me thinks there is alot of markup on the average hunting rifle....
And to think that new mfg .223, 7.62, x54, 8mm etc etc ammo will hit the shelf at a lower cost then 20+ yr old stock is a fantasy... I can understand how it would be nice to be able to get some hard to find stuff but if the bottom dollar is the motivation then buy a nice reloading setup and stop paying the insurance and packaging costs all companys pass on to the end user.
I noticed over the holidays that the americans dont have it as good as some of you let on, at bass pro in Mesa AZ winchester AA target is $80+ a flat, 9mm is $60+ for 250rnd bulk packs and most hunting ammo is par with canadian prices! Surplus ammo prices are not a fair representation of the whole market when canada is a country of 30mil with 3 million firearms owners and the USA is a country of 300 million with a higher percentage of arms per person..... They have buying power we simply cant match.
My biggest eye opener was a savage .308 at walmart was $340 while the same rifle here sells around the $600 mark with tax.... Me thinks there is alot of markup on the average hunting rifle....
bluemike807
CGN Regular
- Location
- Eastern Ontario
I agree - to a point. Its easy to say that "Canadians didnt support our local stores/manufacturers" - and Im sure to an extent that was true; people just pinching pennies when they could have been shoring up a Canadian business.
However there are also instances where 'local stores' are selling at unreasonable markups. My local 'hunting store' sells .22LR bricks for $35.00. The Wally World (where I feel a part of my soul slough off, every time I walk through the bloody door) sells the same brand brick for $25.00.
I mentioned this to the proprietor of store A, suggesting I would happily buy from him, if he at least came closer to the WW price, and he got very shirty and essentially told me to get lost.
I compromised by getting to know the owner of my local corner store which sells basic hunting gear and ammo come season - and then sells whatever he hasnt moved at 15% off the rest of the year - and having him order in what I want, at an excellent price.
If there was a Canadian Ammunition manufacturer who sold to the public, I would buy stock. I'd also make a concerted effort to make sure that any factory ammo I needed would be bought from them, for the simple reasons that it would be Canadian, and likely alot better than the watery U.S prison gravy we seem to be reliant on.
What I dont understand is why IVI/Dominion doesnt sell even a portion of its ammo to the public? Isnt the CF changing its ammo in the future? Surely it would be reasonable for any surplus of the 'old' stuff to see circulation in the civilian market?
The first time I ever shot was at Connaught - invited there by my safety instructor - he handed me a milking pail full of IVI Steel Cased 7.62x51 and told me to fill my boots at the 300m line. If I knew then what I do now, I'd have filled my boots indeed. And my pockets, and whatever else I could.
Sure, there are always some retailers that tend to be greedy, so shop at one that isn't greedy. 7.62 x39R is a good example even though its not a Canadian made product; Some retailers were selling it for over 200 bucks a case, some as much as 240. The most I've paid is $175, with the majority around $160. I've got it stacked to the ceiling and shot off over ten cases last year. I think the stores that have the $200+ cases are sitting on them taking up storage space and inventory dollars, and I'm fine with that. They can keep them. I'll shop some where else.
The thing to bare in mind is that much of our market is consumer driven. If we want to pay higher than market prices, we inch up the market making things more expensive. The other side of the coin is that items not made in Canada such as surplus ammo come with their own cost: pay for it or do without. As Johnone mentioned, a big customer who purchases a thousand times the amount keeps you in business, whereas small customers do not. Further to mention the pain in the a$$ factor of dealing with silly Canadian import laws, let alone the extra cost involved.
But Hey, if someone can do it cheaper ( and still stay in business) I'll support them, and all the power to them. I'll even commit to advance orders. We sit in front of our computers and hypothesize amongst ourselves that we all should be getting much better prices on 7.62x54R, but are there really that many of us? Who is going to be the first to sink their life savings into this to find out that they may be sitting on it for a long time because there may be fewer of us than a good business plan was counting on. What happens when all your cash is tied up in piles of ammo for months and years until the Feds let it pass inspection, if at all?
There is more to it than meets the eye. However, if someone Canadian wants to take the chance. I'll support them as a consumer.
