Ammunition failure in M305

-raqh- said:



Hey guys,

a friend suggested I try some Tulammo ammunition seeing he had good result in his M305.

This was only the 4th time I brought the M305 to the range and at the very end of the day I fired 4 shots of Tulammo .308. (Shot a bunch of Norinco copper washed during the day).

The third shot did an unexpected humff sound and the bottom of the mag went flying but the case ejected properly. Chamber looked fine so I went ahead to shoot the last 2 rounds...Couldn't fire the 5th as the rest of the casing you can see in the pictures (4th shot) is stuck in the rifle chamber. (Don't think I would've tried after the fire ball 2 inches from my face the 4th shot did...)

Nobody got hurt but it certainly shortened the day.

Now, I'm wondering if this is a headspace problem or if the ammunition might be the cause. Coming back from the range I read a good share of bad stories with tulammo cases splitting. I read that laquered cases might be the problem too and to support all this, I never had problems with the Norc stuff or brass cased ammunition.

But again, this is only the 4th shooting session with this rifle.

From what I understand there really is nobody in the province of Quebec that works much on those rifles so I'm kinda stuck for checkup/advices.
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IMH

Individuals continue to blow up their guns due to cheap, cheap bulk ammo. I just shake my head at how one can risk their property and well being by purchasing this dangerous stuff.
 
Sqr said:
IMH

Individuals continue to blow up their guns due to cheap, cheap bulk ammo. I just shake my head at how one can risk their property and well being by purchasing this dangerous stuff.
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For individuals such as yourself who destroy the good name of the cgn community, I shake my head. The op came here for advice, not to be shamed.

The average user has no idea that this will be a dangerous situation. You can go to a reputable shop and find steel ammo. I occasionally see steel ammo on the shelves at cabelas, so it's easy to assume it's safe to use if a major retailer has it for sale. Norinco, barnaul and Wolf to name a few are steel cased, and if the sole use of these guarantees the risk of property and personal well being, how can they still be in business?

Using steel ammo is not dangerous until it's used outside of its limitations. Steel will not stretch as much as brass. I bet the OPs chamber measures in around the 15 thou over min 308 Win headspace mark which is 5 thou over field and even 1 thou over field 7.62. That's 11 thou over no go 308 and 7 over no go 7.62. How was he to know unless he had it checked before hand which, let's be honest, barely any one does when buying a new rifle, or even a used rifle for that matter.

Steel ammo was designed to be used in military rifles within, at most, field headspace but ideally within no-go.

Under no circumstances is the average user going to know that their unsuspectingly elongated chamber combined with readily available steel ammo is going to result in a case failure/dangerous situation.

The op entrusted the cgn community for help with the situation that he admitted ended up being unsafe.
You are more than welcome to offer your personal values, but it's in poor taste to ridicule.
 
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Yes, this is the place to feel the love.

You had a case separation. Likely caused by shooting crap ammo in a tight or maybe slightly rough chamber.

You need to get the remnant parts out of the rifle. Tiriaq speaks from experience. The man has forgotten more than any ten CGN experts ever learned.

It is a sad day to acknowledge that a populous province with many gun owners and lots of firearms has so few gunsmiths. On the bright side, there are no rules against fixing things yourself. And, this is one side benefit of owning M305s. Tactical Teacher runs clinics for owners to inspect and fix M305s all across the country.

(PS where do you shoot near Sherbrooke?)
 
jonh172 said:
Using steel ammo is not dangerous until it's used outside of its limitations. Steel will not stretch as much as brass. I bet the OPs chamber measures in around the 15 thou over min 308 Win headspace mark which is 5 thou over field and even 1 thou over field 7.62... Steel ammo was designed to be used in military rifles within, at most, field headspace but ideally within no-go.
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I am going to disagree with this theory. It is true that steel stretches less than brass but the very low carbon steel used in cartridge cases will stretch a lot more than people often give it credit for. More importantly steel is much stronger than brass, so much so that I was under the impression that case head separations due to excessive headspace were all but impossible with properly made steel cases. Remember that after World War II a study by the US Ordnance department found that a significant percentage of MG42 machine guns fired out of battery on a regular basis, but blow ups of the gun in service were rather rare because MG42s were only issued with steel cased ammo. Using brass cased ammo in MG42s destroyed them on a regular basis.

If a good steel case can withstand an out of battery discharge it should be able to handle almost any amount of excessive headspace. I bet when the rifle is examined headspace will be found to be within normal measures for a Norinco.
 
BattleRife said:
I am going to disagree with this theory. It is true that steel stretches less than brass but the very low carbon steel used in cartridge cases will stretch a lot more than people often give it credit for. More importantly steel is much stronger than brass, so much so that I was under the impression that case head separations due to excessive headspace were all but impossible with properly made steel cases. Remember that after World War II a study by the US Ordnance department found that a significant percentage of MG42 machine guns fired out of battery on a regular basis, but blow ups of the gun in service were rather rare because MG42s were only issued with steel cased ammo. Using brass cased ammo in MG42s destroyed them on a regular basis.

If a good steel case can withstand an out of battery discharge it should be able to handle almost any amount of excessive headspace. I bet when the rifle is examined headspace will be found to be within normal measures for a Norinco.
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Fair argument for sure.
My theory is just that, a theory. But I think we can all agree that using steel cased ammo is not inherently "dangerous". It's prone to failures sure, but not necessarily dangerous ones.

Normal headspace on a post Y2K import Norinco m14 is from 9-18 thou over min (my personal experiences only based the 20 plus rifles checked in the last few years), I chose 15 as an average. Not all steel being equal, this "could" be large enough to split the cases used in this incident.
 
Back to the first problem at hand...

OP, try pushing an empty brass 308 case into the separated case currently stuck in the chamber by hand, and let the bolt "fly" forward and push the brass case into the steel case. The extractor may grab the brass case rim and you might be able to extract both cases.

Worth a try.
 
Bad ammo. Normally this happen on reloaded ammo when it was stretched to thin after many reloads. Steel doesn't expand as much so it was probably bad from the factory. If you had no split brass before then your rifle is ok.
 
Dude!

Common with headspace issues.

Do not use anything shy of a ruptured case remover, anything else and you'll scratch the chamber, and ruin your barrel. Future casings will expand and hang up on the scratch/gouge. These tools can be bought for less than $10, known to the civilian market as a 'broken shell removing tool'.
 
That is neat, didn't realize the product exist. Just saw the video on Brownell showing extraction.

Brownell had it for $23USD.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/handgun-tools/stuck-case-removers/308-broken-shell-extractor-sku080000530-23311-51870.aspx

1feral1 said:
Dude!

Common with headspace issues.

Do not use anything shy of a ruptured case remover, anything else and you'll scratch the chamber, and ruin your barrel. Future casings will expand and hang up on the scratch/gouge. These tools can be bought for less than $10, known to the civilian market as a 'broken shell removing tool'.
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burnaby said:
That is neat, didn't realize the product exist. Just saw the video on Brownell showing extraction.

Brownell had it for $23USD.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...shell-extractor-sku080000530-23311-51870.aspx
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Reference Ruptured case removers

Seen many at the shows here, military surplus, seen a guy who had dozens of them on his table, along with strippers, slings, cleaning kit surplus, etc, which had just about everything under the sun, they were for $5US, clean used condition.

Guess they're most costly elsewhere.

Try Marstar or maybe Wolverine. $23US plus shipping etc means upwards $50CAD by the time you get it.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
Yes, this is the place to feel the love.

You had a case separation. Likely caused by shooting crap ammo in a tight or maybe slightly rough chamber.

You need to get the remnant parts out of the rifle. Tiriaq speaks from experience. The man has forgotten more than any ten CGN experts ever learned.

It is a sad day to acknowledge that a populous province with many gun owners and lots of firearms has so few gunsmiths. On the bright side, there are no rules against fixing things yourself. And, this is one side benefit of owning M305s. Tactical Teacher runs clinics for owners to inspect and fix M305s all across the country.

(PS where do you shoot near Sherbrooke?)
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I went to St-Francois-Xavier shooting club a couple of times and I am now member at Sandhill shooting club in Cookshire-Eaton near Lennoxville.

I know people asked for a clinic in Montreal which I could probably manage to go, but it wasn't in the near futur to what I understand.
 
I have this one which is used in a 1919A4 or in my day the C5. I also have the type above.

Advantages of the 1919 is you can lever out a "stuck case" and it has a large handle. The other relies on your extractor and other component strength.

I have used this type in 303, 30 cal cartridges.

5503854_copy.jpg
 
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Just a little update for those wondering what happened.

I ordered a UTG extractor off amazon cause it was cheap (9$) and it was one of the first recommendation I got. It didn't work as the extractor lips were not able to catch the shell. Fully open it would catch some other casing I slipped it into and some not..

I was on the hunt for cerrosafe as mentionned by some of you but since it was the weekend stores that could potentially have it were all closed.

I tried a poorman method I was also suggested and filled the casing with brown paper than compress and so on. It didn't work twice but when I got to push the leftover paper out to prepare de casing for cerrosafe, it finally worked and the casing fell of.

So now some people tell me to check headspace and some say it's not necessary, after the suprise I experienced with that gaz blowing back in my face I tend to want to... So that's what's left to do.
 
Another thing that you could try is to use a tap of the proper size, that is the tool used to cut bolt threads in steel... Just screw it in so that it bites enough into the stuck case. Then try getting the stuck case out by pulling on the tap from the chamber, or use a rod / dowel to tap it out from the muzzle. Good luck mon ami!

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I sent the above message before realizing that the OP had already gotten the stuck case out. The above trick with the tap works though, if you are in a bind and find yourself without a proper case extractor...
 
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Yes I read that method in another thread, maybe it was you that suggested it, I cant remember.

Thx for the help anyhow, hope this might help others too in the futur. Not that I wish this to happen to anyone of course!
 
Send me a few fired cases and I'll check them in my case gauge to determine your headspace, intact cases of course :p
Jon
 
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