An Example of Significance of Match Ammo Lot Number

Much of the ammo we buy is on the blind. We don't know how it will work in any one rifle.
This lead me to a thought. I should have many decent 22lr rifles to make the best use of all this purchased ammo.
So now I just have to find that next rifle.

It's so easy to find motivation to buy firearms.
It's a win win really, a gun nut thing. :)
 
keep an eye on the temperature and humidity when you test your ammo, then test it again in different conditions, the ammo I shoot from mid march to mid october is a different lot number then the one I shoot during the winter colder months. If you ever have the opportunity to attend a big shoot in the USA you will see everyone have 4 different lot numbers on their bench and they will change lot numbers as the temperature warms up and the humidity drops, or vice versa

My pockets are only as deep as my credit cards allow them to be.........
 
Is that Pfft cat searching for the "F" word?

The theory I was edumacated on was find the ammo best suited to your gun and then go to the tuner.
This theory came from a man who found the best ammo them put the tuner on set at zero and did nothing further . . . worked for him..

Nono, no vulgar language intended, just an expression of disgust/disbelief :) That is one one thought towards using a tuner, and I have no doubt it can be effective. I just think it is a redundancy. First, it forces you to find not just a good lot of ammo, but one that also suits the naked barrel. This eliminates what could be good lots from being tested further, and makes the job of finding "that" ammo much more difficult. Then once you apply the tuner you start the testing process all over again to get your tune. I'm finding that with where I have my tuner set that my rifle is not so sensitive to different makes and lots of ammo so as to produce results so extreme as Glenn originally posted. Testing with the tuner on and set this way shows me more of the ammo variability, with less influence of the naked barrel's personality to obscure fair assessment of the ammo. I'm trying to find the "Holy Grail" of tuning where I no longer have to change my setting with different ammo and for different distances. Still a work in progress, may be a pipe dream, but I'll keep trying. I'm not far off from it, though. Thing is once I think I might be there, I have to leave it at that setting for multiple shooting days to thoroughly vet it out, and at only 1 or 2 range trips per month... it takes awhile.

Glenn, your post #20 offers a much more balanced perspective than presented initially in this thread, where you gave the impression that the ammo used was certainly of extreme poor quality. Looking at the OP targets, it can be said with certainty that the ammo does not suit the 1411 barrel, but based on the dispersion patterning it was apparent to me that ammo quality alone could not account for all of the observed dispersion. It may well not be National level match winning or 1/4" all day ammo, but it ain't that bad... I figured I'd be able to get something like what you got with your 1913 today out of it.

grauhanen said:
As you may be aware, a tuner doesn't turn poorly shooting ammo into ammo that shoots well. I have tried tuners in recent months but a dearth of good ammo has limited my success.

Here are two things you know at the moment: "The 1411 has produced some very good results this past summer ", and a baseline performance level for the ammo shot through the 1913. You can equal or better the ammo performance obtained with your 1913 through appropriate use of a tuner on your 1411. Just because you didn't figure it out yet, doesn't mean it can't be done. Your Harrell's is being fitted to your 54.30, and your Lowey is fit to your 1907. Have you always shot the 1411 naked barrel, or do you have a tuner option for it? It would be unfortunate to see you give up on tuners so soon, I know it can make one's head spin with so many conflicting views on their use and no real clear consensus on the matter. I've been at it for two years now and I'm in no way prepared to release a definitive method. I've just been learning the hard way through trial and error what works with them, and what does not. A tuner will make that Center-X shoot better in your 1411, for a fact.
 
Much of the ammo we buy is on the blind. We don't know how it will work in any one rifle.
This lead me to a thought. I should have many decent 22lr rifles to make the best use of all this purchased ammo.
So now I just have to find that next rifle.

It's so easy to find motivation to buy firearms.
It's a win win really, a gun nut thing. :)

Yep, Yep, uh-huh, uh-huh, smartest thing I have read in awhile!
 
keep an eye on the temperature and humidity when you test your ammo, then test it again in different conditions, the ammo I shoot from mid march to mid october is a different lot number then the one I shoot during the winter colder months.

There sure seems like there's something to this point. I have ammo that shot very well during the summer that is not doing as well now. Unfortunately my ammo supply has become depleted and what I have left isn't shooting as well as some lots did previously in warmer, drier weather. It's been a very wet autumn in this part of the province.
 
There sure seems like there's something to this point. I have ammo that shot very well during the summer that is not doing as well now. Unfortunately my ammo supply has become depleted and what I have left isn't shooting as well as some lots did previously in warmer, drier weather. It's been a very wet autumn in this part of the province.

colder weather=lower velocities and slower ignition

have a good look at polar biathlon ammo and note the higher velocity on the box, the right ammo may come down to your rifles tuned velocity, but keep in mind that every lot number of ammo could mean one of many things, including a new batch of lube, so was it thicker or thinner then the last lot? lube gets hard when it gets cold, also effects velocity.

Shoot a 20 round group of your worse ammo, then take 20 rounds and shake them around in a sport sock to remove all the excess lube, then shoot them into a 20 round group.......I've seen guys taking ammo out of the case and rolling it around in a pillow case way back in the days of SK snot lube to remove the excess, and boy did it shoot after the shake and bake treatment.....

A small insulated box with a hand warmer placed at the bottom around your ammo boxes can make a world of difference, if there is frost on the ground I've been known to stuff a hand warmer under my scope tube right above the chamber.......does it help??? I don't care, the fact that the other guys on the firing line saw it, questioned it, then felt cheated was all I was after, the only real way to know is going to unfold in the next few months, I have a labradar and I will be keeping better notes on temperature and humidity and muzzle velocity, as of yet there are no rules anywhere that say you cannot shoot over a crony during a match.........can you ever have to much info???? or just to much #### to pack to the range??
 
colder weather=lower velocities and slower ignition

have a good look at polar biathlon ammo and note the higher velocity on the box, the right ammo may come down to your rifles tuned velocity, but keep in mind that every lot number of ammo could mean one of many things, including a new batch of lube, so was it thicker or thinner then the last lot? lube gets hard when it gets cold, also effects velocity.

Shoot a 20 round group of your worse ammo, then take 20 rounds and shake them around in a sport sock to remove all the excess lube, then shoot them into a 20 round group.......I've seen guys taking ammo out of the case and rolling it around in a pillow case way back in the days of SK snot lube to remove the excess, and boy did it shoot after the shake and bake treatment.....

A small insulated box with a hand warmer placed at the bottom around your ammo boxes can make a world of difference, if there is frost on the ground I've been known to stuff a hand warmer under my scope tube right above the chamber.......does it help??? I don't care, the fact that the other guys on the firing line saw it, questioned it, then felt cheated was all I was after, the only real way to know is going to unfold in the next few months, I have a labradar and I will be keeping better notes on temperature and humidity and muzzle velocity, as of yet there are no rules anywhere that say you cannot shoot over a crony during a match.........can you ever have to much info???? or just to much #### to pack to the range??

Some excellent suggestions.

This season I've have had a few bricks from one lot of Polar Biathlon. That ammo with the 1411 gave me my best results to date. That was during the summer, however, and it has not always been so consistent, especially recently, and significantly it has never shot very well out of my other rifles. I suspect it is this particular lot of PB. Some boxes from it have been very good indeed, while others not so much. Perhaps even within one lot not all boxes of ammo are equal in that some boxes are better than others.

I too have noted that some individual rounds can be differently lubricated than their brothers in the same box. A month or two ago, I saw this quite clearly when one round refused to drop out of the ammo box's tray. When I pulled it out I saw that the bullet had excessive lube. Despite wiping it off, it shot much lower than other rounds. This suggests that sometimes lubrication on bullets can vary enough that, while not necessarily obvious on the casual inspection (if it can even be called that) occurring before loading into the chamber, it is sufficiently different to cause it to have a POI different from more consistently lubricated rounds.
 
On another related note extending from my previous comments, experienced shooters are aware of the following, but it's worth repeating for those who are less familiar with .22LR ammunition.

There are many variables when it comes to consistent shooting ammo. Ammo has variation in bullet diameter, rim thickness, overall length, lubrication, and component weights, including casing, powder, and bullet. Variation can also occur in other more difficult to measure areas including primer compound and distribution, case thickness consistency, bullet composition, and powder consistency to name a few.

It may not be only a certain average MV that determines the most consistent results, although in theory if not in practice it certainly helps to have ammo with a low ES and as low an SD as possible. MV's that are printed on a box as it is with Eley or determined by a formula involving the lot number as is said to be the case with Lapua are the average MV recorded with the manufacturer's test rifles. These figures don't reveal any information about ES or SD.

In fact SD may be even more important than ES. Standard deviation indicates how close to the average MV the majority of the ammo in question actually is. An ES of 40 fps is not bad in itself, but if the majority of individual rounds have an actual MV closer to both the high end and the low end of the ES then that ammo is less desirable than a batch of ammo that has most of the individual rounds much closer to the average MV but with a few outliers producing the ES figure.

In short, the lower the SD the better. Unfortunately, shooters can't know the SD until it has been calculated after chronographing the ammo. An exceptionally low SD for .22LR ammo would be around 5 but figures between 10 and 15 can still be useful for target ammo. Higher SD's are not uncommon with many makes of ammo, even with match ammos.

To illustrate standard deviation, an SD of 10 means that two-thirds (roughly 68%) of the ammo in that particular batch will shoot within 10 fps (plus or minus) of the average muzzle velocity. That means an ES for that ammo of 20 fps for that two-thirds of the ammo. The remaining third, that is every one out of three rounds, will have an even higher or lower MV.

Below is a diagram with a more detailed explanation. Consider .22LR standard velocity MV's rather than those offered here and the results are still the same.



As noted above, it is not possible to know without the use of a chronograph what the SD of any particular ammo is.

Adding to the complexity is that rifle barrels are not all the same either. Barrels vary in length and diameter. Some are longer and some are heavier. The barrel bores themselves, like bullets, can vary in internal diameter from one make to another, indeed even between rifles of the same model. Bores are not always perfectly straight and their alignment can affect results. Barrel metallurgy is not necessarily the same from one rifle to another. On the inside the rifling can differ between manufacturers and individual rifles, and not only in the number or shape of the lands and grooves. Some bores are more worn than others, more smooth or more rough.

The result is that two rifles, even of the same make and model, may shoot the same ammo differently. The average MV for a particular ammo can change from one rifle to another and so, too, can the SD.

The variation in individual bullets and individual barrels/bores result in a interaction between the two that can be difficult to predict without the practical experience of shooting the ammo with the rifle in question and seeing the results over a good sample size.

This is why it is so important to find the lot(s) that best suit a particular rifle and the conditions under which it is used. To be sure an average lot should produce average results most of the time. But it can be disappointing to have a poorly shooting lot of what is often expensive ammo. At the same time, when a good lot is in hand the results can be most gratifying.
 
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