An Observation for Young Milsurp Collectors.
- Thread starter JP
- Start date
JP said:
No ill will meant, I was just kidding around.
I'd love to collect some of the premium pieces out there but as a university student, that just isn't possible. I could have one really nice rifle, or a bunch of shootable ones. My No4 Mk1, 91/30, and my P-14 aren't at all pretty, but they shoot well (Ok, well, the P-14 is waiting on a stock, but I'm betting it will shoot well), and that's all that matters to me. I'll take good care of them and pass them down to my kids one day.
I just can't say the same thing about any modern commercial rifle, they're just boring and plain. Sure, I could get a Stevens or a Savage or RemChester, but what's the point? They're nowhere near as fun to shoot or show to new shooters as milsurps are because they have no history.
All I need to do now is get my restricted and get some pistols to round off my collection.
I really do miss the days of inexpensive military rifles, the tail end of which coincided with my early university days. Here's a sampling below of some of the deals that I've found and purchased:
Early to Mid 1990s (LeBarons, King Sol's, SIR)
Brno 98K VG Cond $100
Israeli 98K G Cond $100
M38 Swedish Mauser VG Cond $130
M96/38 stock missing $70
M95 Spanish Mauser VG Cond $130
M1 Garand VG Cond, $299
Polish M44 VG Cond $79.00
Lithgow SMLE Good Cond $69.00
Ishapore SMLE VG Cond $89.00
Norinco SKS New $139
Norinco M14S New/Kit $230
Within the past three years (CGN, Wolverine, Epps, SIR, Marstar, Al Flaherty's)
Israeli 98K .22 trainer Gd Cond $275
FR8 .308 Mauser VG Cond (Plugged to one rd) $250
M96 Swedish Mauser VG Cond $200
R/C 98K VG Cond, $299
AG42b Swedish Lungmann G-VG Cond $250
Austrian M95 and M95 Carbine VG Cond $210 for both
M1 Carbine VG (Non-Rest Barrel) $450
#4mk1 1944 Maltby Enfield VG (hair crack) $200
#5 JC Good Cond $195
#5 JC VG Cond $250
M91/30 with Accessories, VG $145
Yugo M66 SKS, New $250
Norinco SKS New $159
Yugo Tokarev 9mm VG Cond $179
Inglis #2 Hi Power G Cond $450
Swiss K31 with Accessories $265
Ross M10 Sporter F/G Cond $125
It seems as though one can with some searching still come across relatively inexpensive Mosins, M95 Manlichers and SKS, though most of what's listed on the latter list required some searching to find and usually sold out fast (i.e. SIR RC Mausers & Marstar 9mm Tokarevs). M96 Swedes still come in under $300, as do some Enfields, but it's getting increasingly harder to find those deals. I really regret not having snapped up another one or two #4 Enfields, some Turkish and SA Mausers, Danish Garands and M96 Swedes that were once cheap and plentiful.
Even if we were to have another 7-10 years of a truly conservative government that would raise import restrictions and free up firearms sales, it's not clear whether or not we'll be able to take advantage of some of the last Enfield and Mauser stockpiles left in the world awaiting purchase by an importer. The Americans look like they are having their last opportunities on Yugo Mausers, Savage Enfields and other rifles that will probably not be imported to Canada.
The lesson is, DON"T BUBBA your milsurps and take good care of them!
Cheers,
Frank
Early to Mid 1990s (LeBarons, King Sol's, SIR)
Brno 98K VG Cond $100
Israeli 98K G Cond $100
M38 Swedish Mauser VG Cond $130
M96/38 stock missing $70
M95 Spanish Mauser VG Cond $130
M1 Garand VG Cond, $299
Polish M44 VG Cond $79.00
Lithgow SMLE Good Cond $69.00
Ishapore SMLE VG Cond $89.00
Norinco SKS New $139
Norinco M14S New/Kit $230
Within the past three years (CGN, Wolverine, Epps, SIR, Marstar, Al Flaherty's)
Israeli 98K .22 trainer Gd Cond $275
FR8 .308 Mauser VG Cond (Plugged to one rd) $250
M96 Swedish Mauser VG Cond $200
R/C 98K VG Cond, $299
AG42b Swedish Lungmann G-VG Cond $250
Austrian M95 and M95 Carbine VG Cond $210 for both
M1 Carbine VG (Non-Rest Barrel) $450
#4mk1 1944 Maltby Enfield VG (hair crack) $200
#5 JC Good Cond $195
#5 JC VG Cond $250
M91/30 with Accessories, VG $145
Yugo M66 SKS, New $250
Norinco SKS New $159
Yugo Tokarev 9mm VG Cond $179
Inglis #2 Hi Power G Cond $450
Swiss K31 with Accessories $265
Ross M10 Sporter F/G Cond $125
It seems as though one can with some searching still come across relatively inexpensive Mosins, M95 Manlichers and SKS, though most of what's listed on the latter list required some searching to find and usually sold out fast (i.e. SIR RC Mausers & Marstar 9mm Tokarevs). M96 Swedes still come in under $300, as do some Enfields, but it's getting increasingly harder to find those deals. I really regret not having snapped up another one or two #4 Enfields, some Turkish and SA Mausers, Danish Garands and M96 Swedes that were once cheap and plentiful.
Even if we were to have another 7-10 years of a truly conservative government that would raise import restrictions and free up firearms sales, it's not clear whether or not we'll be able to take advantage of some of the last Enfield and Mauser stockpiles left in the world awaiting purchase by an importer. The Americans look like they are having their last opportunities on Yugo Mausers, Savage Enfields and other rifles that will probably not be imported to Canada.
The lesson is, DON"T BUBBA your milsurps and take good care of them!
Cheers,
Frank
Inflation has put average products double now over mid 1980's.
Military surplus rifles have more than doubled in value in these same 20 years.
Average military rifles, bolt actions,are up about 400 percent in 20 years. A few rarer models are up much more. Banks give you 3 %, real estate 5% profit in some years. The stock market is expensive as you pay your broker every time he moves your money around.
Our shooting hobby is fun and does not loose value. Future draconian laws will probably not hit the bolt actions. Of course there are no guarantees.
Military surplus rifles have more than doubled in value in these same 20 years.
Average military rifles, bolt actions,are up about 400 percent in 20 years. A few rarer models are up much more. Banks give you 3 %, real estate 5% profit in some years. The stock market is expensive as you pay your broker every time he moves your money around.
Our shooting hobby is fun and does not loose value. Future draconian laws will probably not hit the bolt actions. Of course there are no guarantees.
Don't think your guns are safe just because they are bolt actions. Just look at what has happened in the UK. I like a good sporter Lee Enfield as a SHTF rifle because it has a legal 10 rounds and the fastest bolt action around. The same reasoning will make it high on the anti's hit list though. I am not saying don't buy them only that we need to fight to keep them.
I totally agree that milsurps have way more character and history than a modern bolt gun. That makes them way more fun in my opinion.
If I had the cash I would buy one good example of each contrys primary rifle and a good T sniper repro.
I totally agree that milsurps have way more character and history than a modern bolt gun. That makes them way more fun in my opinion.
If I had the cash I would buy one good example of each contrys primary rifle and a good T sniper repro.
Claven2 said:Tht being said, it'll likely be a while before bolt actions are on the imminent hit list
Not now but in the future they might. I doesn't matter whats on the target what matters is that we all unite against any bans or whatever antis will try to throw at us.
Military Surplus Guns
I agree with the guys about the value of surplus guns. When Mauser and M1 rifles were dam cheap, we had the option of buying converted autos and nasty black rifles. Now that hole has been plugged by our so called leaders in government, there are less surplus firearms out there to collect. So if the younger guys are interested in history and collecting firearms there aren't many choices of what to buy. The guys that have bought many guns and have them in their collection, now have a chance to capatilize on their investment. There aren't many importers like Century around to scoop up some of the last stockpiles of surplus firearms and bring them into Canada at bargain prices.
Marstar has had many great items over the years, and John has tried to fill the gap that was left by Century. The government has tried to screw him a number of times but has failed. That would make any importer think twice about bringing in anything but bolt action firearms.
I think JP has brought in some great items lately and at reasonable prices.
I hope he can expand and keep up the good work. I have given his site two thumbs up, and referred many guys to it, that are interested in surplis firearms.
I agree with the guys about the value of surplus guns. When Mauser and M1 rifles were dam cheap, we had the option of buying converted autos and nasty black rifles. Now that hole has been plugged by our so called leaders in government, there are less surplus firearms out there to collect. So if the younger guys are interested in history and collecting firearms there aren't many choices of what to buy. The guys that have bought many guns and have them in their collection, now have a chance to capatilize on their investment. There aren't many importers like Century around to scoop up some of the last stockpiles of surplus firearms and bring them into Canada at bargain prices.
Marstar has had many great items over the years, and John has tried to fill the gap that was left by Century. The government has tried to screw him a number of times but has failed. That would make any importer think twice about bringing in anything but bolt action firearms.
I think JP has brought in some great items lately and at reasonable prices.
I hope he can expand and keep up the good work. I have given his site two thumbs up, and referred many guys to it, that are interested in surplis firearms.
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Speaking of De-acts, has anyone seen a L59A1 on the market recently? Guvmint designed No4 de-act. I bought mine for $35 some years ago but haven't seen any on offer since then.
Gentlemen, lest we forget, we as milsurp collectors are a very small niche in the firearms community. I recently had this made very obvious to me at the HACS show in Chilliwack last weekend. The milsurps I had on my table drew some attention by a few knowledgeble afficionados, but several people complained about the milsurps there. One guy had his nose out of joint because they were made specificly for killing "people".
Not really sure why this bothered him as the first firearms ever made that are the progenitors of all firearms were made for killing "people". He didn't like the comparison and felt that I was stretching things a bit, also he wouldn't be brinng his son or comeing himself to another show. This was his first and only.
Badger this isn't by any means a put down on your fine site, but look at your total membership numbers. Not very high. Mind you, the CGS site is almost barren.
We as collectors of milsurp history are an uncommon breed and could very well be the next target of the anti gun crowd.
There is far to much complacency among us and to many of us ignoreing or bit--hing about how the NFA, CSSA, LUFA or RFOBC etc are going about what they do to help. We do need to stick together if we're going to survive. We do need to donate to the cause, court cases are not cheap. We do need to write to our MPs and MLAs, as well as the local and national media. We do need to get involved in community projects as organised firearms club members or groups. How else do you think so few anti gunners get so much favorable attention? Some of those little old ladies are real eager beavers when it comes to letter writeing and fireing up the bridge and needlepoint crowd. I guess it's their only form of excersise other than shuffling the cards or lifting the glass of sherry or tea.
In the early seventies, there were only a very few of us that would speak up, many of us were and still are quite illiterate and were embarrassed to be noticed, let alone speak out and have to defend our rights. We were still familiar with the BNA Act, which guranteed our freedoms and right to private property. We were portrayed by the new social eliteists as nut cases and fear mongers. Then they really went to town. Well those @@#$#%& Lieberals screwed all of us up the backside without lubrication when they decided to bring the constitution home. Even the Queen (NO, I"M NOT A ROYALIST) was going to refuse to sign off on the new constitution, because it took away so many of our supposed inalienable rights.
But the ladies just loved old pimpleface PET, that dashing, rich bachelor that was the media darling at the time.
Darn, I better not go on any more, people will think I'm bitter and a bit of a nutter. Well scr-w em if they can't handle the truth. bearhunter
Not really sure why this bothered him as the first firearms ever made that are the progenitors of all firearms were made for killing "people". He didn't like the comparison and felt that I was stretching things a bit, also he wouldn't be brinng his son or comeing himself to another show. This was his first and only.
Badger this isn't by any means a put down on your fine site, but look at your total membership numbers. Not very high. Mind you, the CGS site is almost barren.
We as collectors of milsurp history are an uncommon breed and could very well be the next target of the anti gun crowd.
There is far to much complacency among us and to many of us ignoreing or bit--hing about how the NFA, CSSA, LUFA or RFOBC etc are going about what they do to help. We do need to stick together if we're going to survive. We do need to donate to the cause, court cases are not cheap. We do need to write to our MPs and MLAs, as well as the local and national media. We do need to get involved in community projects as organised firearms club members or groups. How else do you think so few anti gunners get so much favorable attention? Some of those little old ladies are real eager beavers when it comes to letter writeing and fireing up the bridge and needlepoint crowd. I guess it's their only form of excersise other than shuffling the cards or lifting the glass of sherry or tea.
In the early seventies, there were only a very few of us that would speak up, many of us were and still are quite illiterate and were embarrassed to be noticed, let alone speak out and have to defend our rights. We were still familiar with the BNA Act, which guranteed our freedoms and right to private property. We were portrayed by the new social eliteists as nut cases and fear mongers. Then they really went to town. Well those @@#$#%& Lieberals screwed all of us up the backside without lubrication when they decided to bring the constitution home. Even the Queen (NO, I"M NOT A ROYALIST) was going to refuse to sign off on the new constitution, because it took away so many of our supposed inalienable rights.
But the ladies just loved old pimpleface PET, that dashing, rich bachelor that was the media darling at the time.
Darn, I better not go on any more, people will think I'm bitter and a bit of a nutter. Well scr-w em if they can't handle the truth. bearhunter
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bearhunter said:
No offense taken ...
Unfortunately, gun owners (and collectors) seem to be a dying species ...
It's kind of like being a cigarette smoker. When I was in the service during the 60's, I smoked two packs a day, but I was in the company of a population base where over 50% smoked. I haven't lit up since 1984 and I believe now the data indicates that smokers represent less than 20%? I think the percentage is still much higher in Europe and Asia, but they aren't subjected to the same kind of regulatory issues (or political correctness) we seem to have in North America.
We gun owners can jump up and down and stamp our feet all we want, as well as make ourselves feel good by supporting each other in small communities like the many bulletin boards out there, but the fact remains, a lot of younger people are not getting into the sport and hobby. Just too many "freakin" barriers in their way and more old guys getting out, then are being replaced by youthful new blood.
The prices of collectibles are rising because of the older "baby boomer" buyers and the trade amongst old groups like we have here, plus Internet sales venues also drive prices up because of their nature. There is the odd exception to any rule and I have sold a couple of collector's items to "new" (young) participants in our hobby, but in general, the buyer/collectors I get are like me.... getting on in age...
My hope is that we can maintain and slow down the hobby's attrition, which is primarily why I'd like to see the MKL grow from the current 675 members to somewhere around 1,000. I think that's probably the lion's share of computer (Internet) literate serious collectors today. I know there's a whole bunch of collectors who are older and don't own computers, as I talk to many of them at local gun shows. I've been debating about publishing a "free" (quarterly) MILSURPS.COM collector's magazine to try and reach that group. Basically something like the MKL, except hard copy entries.
If anyone has any ideas on how to not just extend the longevity of our hobby, but increase the amount of younger people who find it enjoyable, I'm all ears.
Sorry for the long post, it wasn't meant to be a religious experience.
Regards,
Badger
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BadgerDog said:No offense taken ...
Unfortunately, gun owners (and collectors) seem to be a dying species ...
It's kind of like being a cigarette smoker. When I was in the service during the 60's, I smoked two packs a day, but I was in the company of a population base where over 50% smoked. I haven't lit up since 1984 and I believe now the data indicates that smokers represent less than 20%? I think the percentage is still much higher in Europe and Asia, but they aren't subjected to the same kind of regulatory issues (or political correctness) we seem to have in North America.
We gun owners can jump up and down and stamp our feet all we want, as well as make ourselves feel good by supporting each other in small communities like the many bulletin boards out there, but the fact remains, a lot of younger people are not getting into the sport and hobby. Just too many "freakin" barriers in their way and more old guys getting out, then are being replaced by youthful new blood.
The prices of collectibles are rising because of the older "baby boomer" buyers and the trade amongst old groups like we have here, plus Internet sales venues also drive prices up because of their nature. There is the odd exception to any rule and I have sold a couple of collector's items to "new" (young) participants in our hobby, but in general, the buyer/collectors I get are like me.... getting on in age...
My hope is that we can maintain and slow down the hobby's attrition, which is primarily why I'd like to see the MKL grow from the current 675 members to somewhere around 1,000. I think that's probably the lion's share of computer (Internet) literate serious collectors today. I know there's a whole bunch of collectors who are older and don't own computers, as I talk to many of them at local gun shows. I've been debating about publishing a "free" (quarterly) MILSURPS.COM collector's magazine to try and reach that group. Basically something like the MKL, except hard copy entries.
If anyone has any ideas on how to not just extend the longevity of our hobby, but increase the amount of younger people who find it enjoyable, I'm all ears.
Sorry for the long post, it wasn't meant to be a religious experience.
Regards,
Badger
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Milsurp Knowledge Library (Click HERE)
Try and organize a local "milsurp" day with a school or another event. Get everyone out there to shoot what grandpa did back in the day.
Problems with military surplus rifles as I see and getting younger folk to want to buy them is that of a "expected value" issue.
I see a few downfalls for Military surplus rifles to be bought by younger guys:
Personally I see in the future my rifle collection will mainly contain military surplus rifles.
Military Surplus rifles have history and have been proven already for you that they can go through hell and back without skipping a beat, which is important when your on a once of a lifetime hunt or hunting dangerous game and you need to make sure that gun will fire after getting dropped into the mud when you need it to work.
Dimitri
I see a few downfalls for Military surplus rifles to be bought by younger guys:
- Not loaded in Ultra Super magniums needed to kill small deer apparently.
- Not ready to accept a scope mounting system generally. Which conflicts with the need to have a 10x scope to shoot game at under 200 yards.
- Not many spare parts avalible, some non-existant like barrels.
- Some Military surplus rifles cost more to buy then a commercial rifle in comprable condition.
- Ammunition is not always avalible. And Iron sights sometimes don't match the trajectory of sporting ammo.
Personally I see in the future my rifle collection will mainly contain military surplus rifles.
Military Surplus rifles have history and have been proven already for you that they can go through hell and back without skipping a beat, which is important when your on a once of a lifetime hunt or hunting dangerous game and you need to make sure that gun will fire after getting dropped into the mud when you need it to work.
Dimitri
the_big_mike said:
I remember a bunch of us used to walk through the halls of my high school every week, carrying No.7 Mk1 Long Branch .22 Trainers, on our way to the basement indoor range at our local armoury.
In this day and age, what do think would happen if I called the local high school Principal, suggesting we hold a school event at our range to introduce kids to collecting military surplus firearms?
Can you imagine the reaction of the parents and teachers? I bet the Toronto Star and CBC would show up to document the arrest.
Anyway, I think it does work to invite youngsters to the range for "youth days", but I think an endeavour like that has to be supported by parents (or other relatives), who are already into shooting sports. They aren't ignorant and understand the hobby already.
Regards,
Badger
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