where can I find info on a side by side anc etabl pieper herstal belgium shotgun it is a 12 gauge and has external hammers, the reciever has a vine with leaves engraved on it and has a horse with the word bayard on the side of the barrels. the serrial number is 4 digets long. could this be valuable??
anc etabl pieper herstal belgium
- Thread starter mpjustin
- Start date
Highly unlikely. There's lots of them out there. Most are chambered in 2 1/2" and should not be fired with nitro powder shells. Those in particularly poor condition, or with pitted barrels, should not be fired at all.
They can be fun to shoot, if they're in shootable condition and you're into black powder...
They can be fun to shoot, if they're in shootable condition and you're into black powder...
La société anonyme des Anciens Etablissements Pieper
Everything you need to know about the gun can be gleaned from this site:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies p/a pieper en tete gb.htm
Pieper is an old name. The variation from which your gun originates went into production in 1907. Bayard is the barrel steel manufacturer, owned by Pieper. Straightshooter is correct, Pieper made a lot of guns and they are not rare or particularly valuable, but they can be nice guns and are a cut above the typical Belgian clunker.
Sharptail
Everything you need to know about the gun can be gleaned from this site:
http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies p/a pieper en tete gb.htm
Pieper is an old name. The variation from which your gun originates went into production in 1907. Bayard is the barrel steel manufacturer, owned by Pieper. Straightshooter is correct, Pieper made a lot of guns and they are not rare or particularly valuable, but they can be nice guns and are a cut above the typical Belgian clunker.
Sharptail
Sharptail I really hate when people make generalised statements like "typical Belgian clunker". Companies like Francotte, Lebeau Courally, Dumoulin, F/N Herstall etc. Made very high quality guns. On par or better than a lot of English Best Guns. Even some of the "Guild Guns" were of very high quality. Yes they did make their share of "Clunkers". So did England, Germany and Italy.That's why every gun should be rated on it's own merit.
MauserMike
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Don't forget Spain 
I have to agree with Win64 re: Sharptail's and straightshooter's comments. I own several Piepers, photos of one have been posted on this site. Comments from the knowledgeable people I have shown the gun to indicate a perception that it is as finely made a firearm as they get to see. The only drawback is the quality of the lumber isn't up to the rest of the gun. This from people who work on and have a personal bias to all things English. I would not be too quick to judge until we have a lot more info and hopefully photos from mpjustin than we have to date.
You can't be faulted for defending Belgian made firearms against generalizations. They certainly deserve such a defense. In this case, though, you needn't worry - Neither Sharptail nor I are critical of Belgian guns in general. In fact, as you correctly pointed out, many fine guns have been produced by Belgian tradesmen, and by Pieper specifically. Browning, Winchester, and other makes have produced excellent models in Belgium and are now owned by a Belgian concern - Fabrique Nationale of Herstal.
Rest assured that we had no intention of impuning Belgian makers in general or Pieper, for that matter. What we were trying to say (and did), is that there are a great many Pieper SxS hammerguns that were cheaply made and are not valuable as shooters or for collections.
Rest assured that we had no intention of impuning Belgian makers in general or Pieper, for that matter. What we were trying to say (and did), is that there are a great many Pieper SxS hammerguns that were cheaply made and are not valuable as shooters or for collections.
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Some "no-name" Belgian brands apparently produced quality guns as well.....I had a thread on the one that I acquired a while ago.....very well made. Sorry for the hijack
Funny, Is that your typical "Belgian clunker"?
I find it hard to give an unbiased appraisal on a gun I haven't even seen a picture of.Win/64 et al, you are of course correct in pointing out that there were (and are) very fine guns made in Belgium. I have a couple. The fact remains that for every Dumoulin there are thousands of mediocre Belgian guns. The Belgians were in a unique position to produce large quantities of inexpensive guns, largely for the export market. To fill international demand they produced what ever they were asked to produce, and by and large that meant cheap hardware store guns. So, while I agree that the Belgians could / can produce top flight firearms, the majority of their production was aimed at the bottom end of the scale. Hence my use of the word "typical" - look it up.
The reason that I point this out is the sheer number of questions I have answered in regards to the history and desirability of someone's Grandpa's gun, which turns out to be a a $10 hardware store special (Grandpa bought the cheapest gun he could lay his hands on).
It is irresponsible to say that the Belgians produced fine shotguns without pointing out that they also produced hoards of poorly made, poorly balanced clunkers. For those who are capable of evaluating a gun on its own merits this is not required, but for those who are new to the subject a blanket endorsement of Belgian firearms can be misleading. When Win/64 says "Yes they did make their share of Clunkers" it is being rather biased - they did in fact make more than their share of clunkers. Buyer beware.
The same is true of Spain. A dozen or so top flight makers throughout history, the rest scrambling for any form of market share. I draw the line at England - someone please show me an example of an English clunker.
So, perhaps I am being unfair by using a phrase like "typical Belgian clunker" (the official term is JABC - Juast Another Belgian Clunker). There are indeed many truly well made Belgian guns. I just do not view them as "typical" any more than I view a Grulla or Arrieta as a "typical" Spanish gun.
Sharptail
The reason that I point this out is the sheer number of questions I have answered in regards to the history and desirability of someone's Grandpa's gun, which turns out to be a a $10 hardware store special (Grandpa bought the cheapest gun he could lay his hands on).
It is irresponsible to say that the Belgians produced fine shotguns without pointing out that they also produced hoards of poorly made, poorly balanced clunkers. For those who are capable of evaluating a gun on its own merits this is not required, but for those who are new to the subject a blanket endorsement of Belgian firearms can be misleading. When Win/64 says "Yes they did make their share of Clunkers" it is being rather biased - they did in fact make more than their share of clunkers. Buyer beware.
The same is true of Spain. A dozen or so top flight makers throughout history, the rest scrambling for any form of market share. I draw the line at England - someone please show me an example of an English clunker.
So, perhaps I am being unfair by using a phrase like "typical Belgian clunker" (the official term is JABC - Juast Another Belgian Clunker). There are indeed many truly well made Belgian guns. I just do not view them as "typical" any more than I view a Grulla or Arrieta as a "typical" Spanish gun.
Sharptail
Thanks for the clarification on your thoughts Sharptail. My own perspective is that, due to the widespread view of JABC, it's possible to find some fantastic guns at very affordable prices.....I include german guns in this perspective as well. The german guns often have attributes that are very "un-English", sling swivels, heavy, cheek pieces, etc that put many off, but sometimes you can find a real gem at a great price. Much harder to do with English guns from any maker and from any era these days. I look but don't often find. And personally, I collect the gun, not the make or the country. Nothing wrong with another approach, just not mine. Happy SxS hunting everyone!
Should have included your name as well, Straightshooter, in my post thanking Sharptail for the clarification.
By the way mpjustin, I think we'd all like to see at least one pic of this gun. Who knows, we might find that this one isn't JABC.
By the way mpjustin, I think we'd all like to see at least one pic of this gun. Who knows, we might find that this one isn't JABC.
I will try to figure out how to put up a pic in the next day or two, otherwise I will have to send it to each of you emails , where do I learn to put pics again , and do I have to put them somewhere else on line first???? I just want the easyest way, thanks, justin
, where do I learn to put pics again , and do I have to put them somewhere else on line first???? I just want the easyest way, thanks, justin
