And Today's Lesson . . .

Just wondering if you measured case web expansion at all, and if you did, did you find anything conclusive?

Happy to hear you fared much better than your bolt. I shudder to think of other possible outcomes.

After the fact yes, unfired - .465" 47 gr - .466" 48 gr - .467" 49 gr - .490"!

Earlier when I worked up the loads with 760, in the same brass, I got a readable pressure sign at 50 grs, and the web expanded to .468".
 
Had a very soft case head been the cause, would not early pressure signs from a lower charge weight been apparent? Certainly if the head and web of the case were soft, a sticky bolt lift would have signaled a problem.

Without being able to subject that lot of brass to a Brinell test or similar, I can only go from the photos. The 4th head has a dramatically-enlarged vent and primer pocket, which suggests that the metal has flowed under pressure (duh). To me, all other things being equal, that suggests a softer metal rather than a harder. In any case, assuming you have used that particular casing before, the problem is clearly one of a huge spike in pressure, not the brass.

WRT the suggestion of pressure detonation, there is of course a difference between that and simple overpressure caused by too high a loading or by an obstructed barrel (I assume you're sure that the barrel was clear for that shot). The damage I've seen from detonations (on a pair of SA80s, as it happens) is considerably more, shall we say, 'impressive', so without discounting it entirely, I'd be less likely to attribute this to detonation.

One thought - a number of reloading sources note that different bullets of the same weight can result in differing pressures. The jackets of two brands of bullets or even two different designs of the same brand may be of a different hardness; the harder one would of course raise the pressure to some degree. Moreover, due to the shape of the bullet, one bullet may have more jacket in contact with the barrel, raising pressure.

Another - Julian Hatcher noted that the Yank national rifle matches had a string of breech explosions which he traced to the then-common habit of oiling the ammo. Is it possible that that round was still lubed from reloading?

Due to the chamber dimensions and the long barrel of my rifle, .308 book data, as it relates to maximum loads and maximum velocity, isn't relevant. For example, the Sierra manual states 2450 fps is the maximum velocity for a .308 with a 200 gr bullet backed by 45.5 grs of W-760, yet my rifle can drive a 200 gr MK to 2660 with 50 grs of W 760. My proven loads have much more in common with a .308 AI than with a SAMI .308. When I looked at the Lapua data for the 190 with N550, I figured that 47 grs should be close to maximum in my rifle with the 210, which turned out to be accurate. Yet I do not hot rod my loads, when I have pressure signs on my brass, I back off a full grain and consider that to be my maximum working load, then work down from that point to find the best accuracy.

You seem to have approached your loading workups with a scientific approach and clearly have much experience. Yet - and no disrespect intended - I would not be comfortable trying to stretch the envelope without a proper (and yes, expensive) pressure rig. I note that you have exceeded the Sierra recommended max load for that 200gr/W760 load by close to 10%, yet don't consider that 'hot-rodding' because you have not been able to discern pressure signs on the brass. Those classic warning signs are just that; they're not scientific pressure evaluation methods.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the reason the old X-series test pilots had short lifespans was because they were constantly trying to push the envelope. The closer to the edge you get, the more likely you are to fall off. Again, no finger-pointing, but it would seem that you have not only been living on the pressure edge, but spent some time leaning over it.

Glad you're OK.
 
Atom, yes that begs the question, what caused the pressure spike?

Had the barrel been obstructed, there would have been far greater damage to the rifle. The previous shot measured 2655 which pretty much preludes the possibility of an obstruction. All of the testing was done with the same weight and style of bullet, which are very uniform in shape and weight, so there was no difference in the bearing surface or weight from shot to shot. The brass was new and free of dents so I simply loaded it as is and applied no lube. When I lube I use a very small amount of Imperial Sizing Wax and ensure the cases are wiped clean before getting to the priming or loading steps. I did have previous experience with the brass in question, and used it without any surprising occurrences.

No disrespect taken for your observations. The chamber of my .308 essentially makes it a wildcat cartridge, as a result the data for it will be different than would be the case with a SAMI .308 chamber. Had my barrel been 2" longer or 2" shorter than it is, that again would have had an impact on the velocity I observed, regardless of pressure.
 
After the fact yes, unfired - .465" 47 gr - .466" 48 gr - .467" 49 gr - .490"!

Based the appearance of the case head with 48gr, I would not have fired the load with 49gr. If I had been measuring the web diameters, I would have stopped at 47 grains.
 
Indeed, although attempting to hit 2700 was not the point of the exercise; determining the maximum load was, I didn't care what the number was, I wanted to know where the wall was. The fact remains though, that the pressure came on suddenly, and without what I consider to be the normal observable warning. The point of attempting to establish a maximum safe load is to be sure you are always under it. There are those who will say that 2400 fps is the limit, and without working up the load in what should have been a safe manner, and has proven to be safe with other propellents, how do you know?

Lets say I had taken my calipers to the range. The previous maximum load I worked up expanded the web to .468" and because the rate of expansion of the web was .001" with each 1 gr increment in powder, with 46 gr showing no expansion compared to the unfired case, the fact that 47 grs expanded the web to .466" and that 48 grs expanded the case to .467 would have prompted me to fire the 49 gr load, because the previous data suggested the next increment would have expanded the web to .468" safely and the visible ejector mark would have confirmed that the maximum pressure had been reached. But it didn't happen that way.

The question remains, why was there such a dramatic increase in pressure with an increment of a single grain of powder? I suppose the thing to do is accept that when approaching maximum loads with N550, it must be done with the knowledge that it is unforgiving.
 
Atom, yes that begs the question, what caused the pressure spike?

Damfino.

I know explosives of any sort - including propellants - have a will of their own, and it's rarely friendly. I've seen some accidents I am still puzzling over 20 years later; they shouldn't have happened, but they did.

All I can suggest is to stay away from that load in future (duh! #2, eh?). The problem is that you are venturing into what is essentially unknown territory and while that turf has some nice views, it also has potholes, quicksand and the occasional dragon.

One last thought - Clarke's Third Law. The only way to determine the limits to the possible is by going through them into the impossible.

Best of luck.
 
Two thoughts come to mind. Is the chamber neck SAAMI or tighter? If tighter, could you have fond the case that was slightly thicker in the neck and this made a pipebomb? (or is the chamber neck slightly short, making the case slightly long?

Second thought is that the top two load were way over the limit and it was just a question of time before something let go.
 
The other day I was working up a load with a 175g matchking in my 308. It is a custom action and I was pushing things quite hard.

I was seeing absolutly no signs of pressure at all, but after looking at the blazing speed posted on my crony I had a feeling that the first sign I was about to see was a big one so I stopped there.

Same type situation but this was with R15. The brass was quite hard Winchester with many firings on it. My gut told me there was something wrong so I stopped even though things looked fine. After seeing this thread I am glad I stopped were I did.
 
Two thoughts come to mind. Is the chamber neck SAAMI or tighter? If tighter, could you have fond the case that was slightly thicker in the neck and this made a pipebomb? (or is the chamber neck slightly short, making the case slightly long?

Second thought is that the top two load were way over the limit and it was just a question of time before something let go.

The chamber neck is the standard diameter, I decided at the time I didn't want to have to turn every single neck, so I went with the standard diameter. The neck diameter of the loaded round is .338" and of a fired round .345" as near as I can measure. A clearance of .007" should be more than adequate from the standpoint of safety.

I trimmed the cartridge to 2" prior to loading, which should be .015" short of the standard cartridge length. None of the fired rounds show evidence of scuffing around the case mouth which should be evident if the neck was too long for the chamber, resulting in a crimped bullet. The only time chambering a round has been a problem with this rifle is when I have allowed the shoulder length to grow a bit too long without full length resizing.

If the top two loads were over pressured, why then didn't the web of the case expand to .468" and produce a sticky bolt lift as was the case with the maximum load of Winchester 760?

Pressure sign on the brass which safely fired 50 grs of Win 760 under a 210 Matrix can be clearly seen at 12:00. The web of the case measures .468"
MatrixMaxLoad.jpg
 
If I am testing loads, once any load results in a web expansion of .001", compared to an unfired case, I do not increase the powder charge anymore. Once I see any sign at all of extrusion, I stop shooting that load, and reduce the powder charge.
 
I guess we learned pressure increases are not linear.

Did you know a 190gr bullet calls out a max load of 47.2gr?

The amount of powder usually decreases as bullet weight increases!

50gr of powder with a 210 gr bullet?

Be careful man!!!

Boomer,
Where did you get your load data? I can't find ANY data that matches up N550 and a 215gn bullet AND that gives you 2600fps.

Or was this in the order of, "I have no data so I will work this up for my own use" type of thing.

Even if that was the case, I would have been extremely skeptical about going to 50gns since, according to the Lapua website, a maximum load of N550 behind a 190gn bullet is 47.2gn, giving just over 2600fps. (2624 fps actually)

Back when I did this sort of thing, thinking it was fun, I would immediately expect that to exceed 47gns would be to max out pressures behind a 215gn bullet and I probably would have stopped the 1gn increments at 45gn. I would have moved forward, with an unknown powder, in .1gn increments up to 47gns. But that was just me following the advice of a really old guy who I trusted. It worked for me, still have all fingers, eyes, and ears.

I am really glad you are all right.
 
The question remains, why was there such a dramatic increase in pressure with an increment of a single grain of powder? I suppose the thing to do is accept that when approaching maximum loads with N550, it must be done with the knowledge that it is unforgiving.

Could it be that the increase in pressure wasn't dramatic, but the failure point of the brass case was ? i.e. a straw breaking the camels' back sort of situation?
 
Any chance your loads that locked up the bolt were compressed? I have on a few occasions found bullets creeping out of cases on compressed loads after sitting for a few hours.

If the OAL lengthened the decreased jump to the lands coupled with the increased powder charge could cause pressures to rise in less than linear fashion.
 
I guess we learned pressure increases are not linear.

Did you know a 190gr bullet calls out a max load of 47.2gr?

The amount of powder usually decreases as bullet weight increases!

50gr of powder with a 210 gr bullet?

Be careful man!!!

Again, due to the way my rifle was built, .308 book data is not relevant as the long seating of the bullet increases the powder capacity. I had assumed that 47 grs of N550 would be the maximum load, if indeed I got that far. As it turned out, 47 grs gave no visual clue that excessive pressure was being approached. The 48 gr load did, but I missed it as the mark on the case head was so light that it was impossible to see in the bright light that day, the bolt handle showed no sign of sticky extraction, and there was no velocity plateau which I anticipated as I approached maximum pressure.
 
Any chance your loads that locked up the bolt were compressed? I have on a few occasions found bullets creeping out of cases on compressed loads after sitting for a few hours.

If the OAL lengthened the decreased jump to the lands coupled with the increased powder charge could cause pressures to rise in less than linear fashion.

The 49 gr load certainly filled the case, but the powder did not compress as the bullet was seated long and didn't intrude on the powder capacity. This was made possible by the long throat of this rifle, which essentially increased the capacity of the cartridge and reduced pressure, allowing significantly higher velocity with slightly more powder.

In the case of the 50 gr Win-760 load, that load simply defined where the search for the accurate load woudl begin. As it turned out the most accurate load with 760 was 47.7 grs, for an average 2545 fps which produced half minute groups at 500 yards.
 
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Could it be that the increase in pressure wasn't dramatic, but the failure point of the brass case was ? i.e. a straw breaking the camels' back sort of situation?

This is as good a suggestion as any. Regardless of where the load was pressure wise, it exceeded the strength of that particular brass case.
 
Boomer, glad you were not hurt. Thanks for posting at the very least this info highlights that if someone with your level of experience can be caught out, then none of us should ever assume or become complacent.

good shooting.
 
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