Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The paint on stuff is crap. Use the welders crayon. This stuff goes puff when it hits the right temp and leaves no residue.
The paint black crud is brutal to remove.
Jerry
Annealing machines
- Thread starter Chinbullco
- Start date
The paint on stuff is crap. Use the welders crayon. This stuff goes puff when it hits the right temp and leaves no residue.
The paint black crud is brutal to remove.
Jerry
Curious what welders crayon you use? The one I have is rock hard and designed to be applied to a hot surface, melted on. Is it possible to apply yours on cold brass?
From my experience so for the actual tempilaq liquid would be the best for annealing.
I've done the same but instead of heating for a pre-determined amount of seconds I do it in a darkend room and heat the neck and shoulder area "just" until it starts to get a burgundy colour and then quickly douse the case in CLR. Seems to work fine and haven't had any split necks since doing this. Also I've rigged up a dimmer swith to a plug-in so I can very finely control the rate of rotation with the drill.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Finally got a chance to use my Grizzly anealer the other day. That is just about the slickest machine to use. Once the torches are set up it is quick and painless to do and you know that every case is getting the exact same treatment.
A couple of problems, (1) The response time of the infrared sensors (that I can afford) is way too long for this application
(2) They do not work on shiny materials i.e. brass
I picked one up hoping it would solve the problem of using Tempilaq but it was of no help for the above reasons
True but not many people would be willing to drop $20K on an anealing machine. :O
The discussion about infrared temp guns got me thinking. I have some digital, high temp thermocouple recording devices. I could attach a thermocouple to the inside of a case neck and get accurate temps that way but it does seem a bit excessive.
Nope, way too much lag time. The problem is that you aren't applying the temperature that you're trying to reach. You're applying up to 3600 deg F, and trying to catch it as it passes 600-800F. There is going to be a significant amount of overshoot. The transient rise time is too quick for an instrument to read, process and display. By the time it give you the temperature it just read, the case is probably a couple hundred degrees higher. Same with the tempilaq or the crayon. Whatever temperature it melts at is well below the temperature the brass is at by the time it melts and you register that it has melted.
To do it correctly, you would need to capture the raw analog signal from the thermocouple with a fast data logger and see how high the temperature goes for various exposure times.
I've given up on trying to measure the temperatures. The goal of annealing is to restore the ductility of the metal, so to me it makes more sense to tune things based on that and not some temperature value that you *think* you're hitting. I expose the cases for increasing amounts of time until I'm only getting 0.001" or spring back when I re-size the neck. I use a Lee hand press and some gauge pins to check this and I do it next to the machine. Doesn't take long. I record the exposure time.
To consistently set the flame to same temperature each time, I stick a piece of bar stock in the shell holder and measure the temperature at a certain distance away from the flame using a thermocouple glued to it (IR thermometer would work). It won't tell you what temperature the flame is at, but it will give you a way of adjusting the flame to the same temperature each time. Then exposing the case for the same amount of time as the previous session should provide the same level of annealing.
To consistently set the flame to same temperature each time, I stick a piece of bar stock in the shell holder and measure the temperature at a certain distance away from the flame using a thermocouple glued to it (IR thermometer would work). It won't tell you what temperature the flame is at, but it will give you a way of adjusting the flame to the same temperature each time. Then exposing the case for the same amount of time as the previous session should provide the same level of annealing.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Excellent advice. It will be very hard for us low tech people to actually KNOW the temp we reach but we can infer based on results.
I use a lower temp stick so when it melts, the area of interest must be at a higher temp. By playing with dwell time in the flame, I get the ductility I want.
And as long as it is consistent and repeatable, really doesn't matter what the absolute value is.
Always better to be under and over annealed
Jerry
I use a lower temp stick so when it melts, the area of interest must be at a higher temp. By playing with dwell time in the flame, I get the ductility I want.
And as long as it is consistent and repeatable, really doesn't matter what the absolute value is.
Always better to be under and over annealed
Jerry
What are your thoughts on the advice provided by ammosmith on you tube.
With his advice the "annealing machine" has the only cost for a 1lb propane tank, torch attachment, bucket of water, and some tools laying around. My time count is based on what it takes to get the blue hue past the shoulder. I do not buy into the suggestion of annealing in the dark and getting brass glowing dull red. Looking for the Blue in the light works for me. Annealing 50 brass takes less than 10 minutes.
I believe with all the variability in place the procedure is adequate for the purpose. The task is to soften the shoulder and neck to provide enough spring back when brass becomes over hardened from firing. Brass will migrate back to harness if I am correct even if you go too long under the flame. It appears the risks are under annealing before over annealing (meaning you have to try harder to kill your brass.)
My two bits.....
With his advice the "annealing machine" has the only cost for a 1lb propane tank, torch attachment, bucket of water, and some tools laying around. My time count is based on what it takes to get the blue hue past the shoulder. I do not buy into the suggestion of annealing in the dark and getting brass glowing dull red. Looking for the Blue in the light works for me. Annealing 50 brass takes less than 10 minutes.
I believe with all the variability in place the procedure is adequate for the purpose. The task is to soften the shoulder and neck to provide enough spring back when brass becomes over hardened from firing. Brass will migrate back to harness if I am correct even if you go too long under the flame. It appears the risks are under annealing before over annealing (meaning you have to try harder to kill your brass.)
My two bits.....
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
If you play with enough brands of brass, you quickly find that all brass does not change colour to the same degree.
I have new win that gives a gorgeous colour change with blues and purples - text book.
Another batch of Win, doesn't change as much
Some Fed doesn't change colour AT ALL. I have roasted a few pieces to see what would happen and they got cooked but have not changed colour.
colour is a lousy temp indicator. time in flame IS decent IF you can control you time to within 1/2 sec. 1/2 a sec is a very long time for a mechanical set up so there is room for error.
for the hands and eyes and tiring/bored brain, you can be way off.
If you over anneal the necks, they go to taffy and are rendered useless. There is insufficient neck tension to even hold the bullet let alone shoot it a bunch of times to get it to harden.
Shooting a low lifespan bore to save a few pieces of brass also seems like a poor strategy.
The point of annealing is to soften the brass and we want to do this to ensure consistent neck tension.
Why would you use any method that allows inconsistency into this most important of steps?
Why run the risk of making necks of INCONSISTENT neck tension?
I would rather toss the brass then not anneal precisely. I had a great conversation with a top US shooter a while back and that was his policy.
Brand new lapua brass - tossed or sold off after 4 firings. NO exceptions. Seems to work for him as he has won most major matches in NA.
But that is a wee bit too much for my wallet to handle.
Jerry
I have new win that gives a gorgeous colour change with blues and purples - text book.
Another batch of Win, doesn't change as much
Some Fed doesn't change colour AT ALL. I have roasted a few pieces to see what would happen and they got cooked but have not changed colour.
colour is a lousy temp indicator. time in flame IS decent IF you can control you time to within 1/2 sec. 1/2 a sec is a very long time for a mechanical set up so there is room for error.
for the hands and eyes and tiring/bored brain, you can be way off.
If you over anneal the necks, they go to taffy and are rendered useless. There is insufficient neck tension to even hold the bullet let alone shoot it a bunch of times to get it to harden.
Shooting a low lifespan bore to save a few pieces of brass also seems like a poor strategy.
The point of annealing is to soften the brass and we want to do this to ensure consistent neck tension.
Why would you use any method that allows inconsistency into this most important of steps?
Why run the risk of making necks of INCONSISTENT neck tension?
I would rather toss the brass then not anneal precisely. I had a great conversation with a top US shooter a while back and that was his policy.
Brand new lapua brass - tossed or sold off after 4 firings. NO exceptions. Seems to work for him as he has won most major matches in NA.
But that is a wee bit too much for my wallet to handle.
Jerry
As always, a great conversation Jerry. Thanks for the input.
Perhaps something like a tempo timer (a piano/music teacher may have sitting around.) or a digital device help with lazy brain. My voice actuated one thousand one does vary a bit I must say
I do note the use of a lee collet die to get the tension I want helps with keeping things consistent. But havn't come accross a piece of brass soft enough yet to not hold a bullet in place when using the collet.
I will have to try to cook a few for learning purposes to see how far you have to go just for fun. Cheers.
Perhaps something like a tempo timer (a piano/music teacher may have sitting around.) or a digital device help with lazy brain. My voice actuated one thousand one does vary a bit I must say
I do note the use of a lee collet die to get the tension I want helps with keeping things consistent. But havn't come accross a piece of brass soft enough yet to not hold a bullet in place when using the collet.
I will have to try to cook a few for learning purposes to see how far you have to go just for fun. Cheers.
Chinbullco
Regular
- Location
- NW Alberta
Case annealing
Anybody using a press with force indicator dial, for bullet seating to confirm case necks are properly annealed? Thinking a K + M arbor press with force measuring capability is the only way to prove annealing gives the desired uniform bullet tension.
Anybody using a press with force indicator dial, for bullet seating to confirm case necks are properly annealed? Thinking a K + M arbor press with force measuring capability is the only way to prove annealing gives the desired uniform bullet tension.
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This is what I'm thinking of using. I'm thinking that I will either get a single stage press, or build a special non-conductive tool head for my 650.
I'll use a microswitch to signal the start, when the press is at the top of its travel, that way I know the case is in the correct orientation. Add two LEDs, Red for heating coil on, green for ready to work.
Then I would have a dial operated timer that would allow me to dial in exactly how long I need for each type of brass. Maybe get one with a digital readout, that way I can write down the times for each caliber.
The nice thing with induction heating, is that you have more control over how long the brass is exposed to the heat source. As soon as the heating coil is shut off there is no more heat going into the brass. Putting a timer on this would give consistent results every time.
Last time I was on the snap-on truck, my dealer carries this exact model of induction heater, priced around $700 if I remember correctly. So I imagine said in done I would be into the induction heater for $2k or so, but would provide impressive results. I haven't started building it, as I'm not going through enough .308 at this time to really warrant it, but it is on the drawing board and will need to be setup pretty soon as we're running out of "good" .223 brass.
This is what I'm thinking of using. I'm thinking that I will either get a single stage press, or build a special non-conductive tool head for my 650.
I'll use a microswitch to signal the start, when the press is at the top of its travel, that way I know the case is in the correct orientation. Add two LEDs, Red for heating coil on, green for ready to work.
Then I would have a dial operated timer that would allow me to dial in exactly how long I need for each type of brass. Maybe get one with a digital readout, that way I can write down the times for each caliber.
The nice thing with induction heating, is that you have more control over how long the brass is exposed to the heat source. As soon as the heating coil is shut off there is no more heat going into the brass. Putting a timer on this would give consistent results every time.
Last time I was on the snap-on truck, my dealer carries this exact model of induction heater, priced around $700 if I remember correctly. So I imagine said in done I would be into the induction heater for $2k or so, but would provide impressive results. I haven't started building it, as I'm not going through enough .308 at this time to really warrant it, but it is on the drawing board and will need to be setup pretty soon as we're running out of "good" .223 brass.
