Annealing temperature?

xingyc

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I'm just getting into annealing, ran into a little issue with the temperature.
I'm using a infrared gun to read the temperature, due to change in emissivity as the brass heat up, and rapid cooling, I think there are 20 to 60 deg Celsius error in my readings. The brass just begin to glow orange (in lighted room) as my infrared gun reads 370 degree Celsius. Is this too far? should I pull the brass out before the neck starting to glow?
 
Once the heat effected zone goes just past the shoulder , although it is tough to see on some brands.I try replicate what Lapua does for appearance.

Rotate in a socket on an electric drill in a small flame.

3-4 firings seems to work, you may want more frequency.
 
I'm just getting into annealing, ran into a little issue with the temperature.
I'm using a infrared gun to read the temperature, due to change in emissivity as the brass heat up, and rapid cooling, I think there are 20 to 60 deg Celsius error in my readings. The brass just begin to glow orange (in lighted room) as my infrared gun reads 370 degree Celsius. Is this too far? should I pull the brass out before the neck starting to glow?

The error is more like 200° or 300°C. Due to the curved surfaces and transient nature of the measurements those handheld IR guns are pretty much useless for cartridge cases. If it is glowing in a lighted room it is over 600°C. I routinely do brass at 550° and the room has to be pretty dim before any kind of glow is discernible.

Whether or not that is a problem I cannot say. Data published by AMP suggests they are achieving their target hardness by a mechanism of grain growth, and I can pretty much guarantee they are going over 600° to get that. AMP is held up by a lot of people as really knowing what they are doing, so that temperature may work fine.
 
Just use tempilaq.

Agreed. 750 F Tempilaq works real easy for my homemade induction annealer ... I made a similar post about 4-5 months ago, one method that was recommended (by Jerry @ Mystic Precision I believe) that I've meaning to give a try to confirm my Tempilaq result is a Welder's Crayon.
 
I guess I'm stupid but I do mine in a fairly dark room twirling with my fingers. Once I see the colour start to change I pull away and I count the seconds for each brass make. Federal takes the least amount of time and others vary. So far it seems to be working for me. Anywhere from 4 or 5 seconds up to a max of 8 seconds depending on make. I learned this method from a website in Australia. Certainly not perfect but the cost is minimal. If I lose the odd one I don't really care but so far it seems to be working well.
 
I shoot for a torch setting of 4-5 seconds. I heat mine up to but not at, an orange flame coming from the case mouth. I use temp stiks, ( probably not as precise as the liquid because of the time it takes to apply the product.) and everything goes just fine. Never too hot down below the case shoulder if set right. I use a metronome app on my phone, and tweak the time of the clicks if my torch is a touch hot or cold, I always try for 4-5 seconds. I switched to a 20lb bottle and dual torch heads 2 years ago as the flame length stays consistent when compared to using a 1lb bottle.
 
You folks need to realize why the lovely blue hued necks happen in the first place on NEW/UNFIRED cartridges.

When the NEW case is extruded, the compounded metal is SOFT.

TO SOFT.

The neck and shoulder areas are heated to a specific temperature and allowed to "air cool"

Air cooling allows the neck/shoulder area to harden, so it won't deform when loading and to increase neck tension.

When we re anneal a cartridge case after several firings, we're doing the opposite. We're softening the brass compound, so we can work it well enough to size it, without it springing back and to create consistent neck tensions.

When I re anneal a case, I do the whole case in a cake pan, in my oven at home.

I turn the oven to its maximum setting and place a pan full of cartridge cases onto the rack.

I leave the cartridges in the rack at the highest temperature for 15 minutes to completely normalize, take them out of the oven and immediately dump them into a sink full of cold water. The cases are now soft enough to size without issues.

This method doesn't get the case metal as soft as the described flame method but it's acceptable and certainly a lot easier. \

Yeah, I've heard all of the excuses for not doing this.

When I was in Brazil in 1976, I went through a facility owned by Mannesman.

They were into all sorts of different things, from mining/smelting to manufacturing and remanufacturing.

They were a conglomerate of companies.

Anyway, one of the things they did, through an affiliated company, was reload military/police ammunition for several different nations.

The only thing they did was to inspect the cases, sort for type and reject damaged cases.

Then they cleaned the cases in a sand/water/muriatic acid mix and inspected them again.

The cleaned cases were then put through a heating process, which was a big rolling oven, heated by natural gas. The oven was tilted so the cases had to move through.

They dumped the cases into a hopper with a vibrator, that allowed them to be fed into the rotating oven, in a manner they would be heated evenly.

When they reached the end of the oven, they dropped into bins fed with a flow of cold water. The temps in that rotating oven were around 500 F (270C)

After quenching, the cases were almost dead soft.

The cases were then lubed/decapped/sized and had their neck/shoulder areas run through a flame and allowed to air cool, to harden the necks/shoulders.

Then the cases were primed/charged and had a bullet inserted.

They didn't care how many times a case had been used. The cases went through this process every single time they were reloaded.

When you're processing several million cases, there just isn't time for all of the niceties.

I don't harden the necks on my cases and it doesn't seem to make any difference. Mind you I'm not looking for enough neck tension to feed flawlessly into full auto firearms.
 
Given that a temperature indicator stick (Tempilstik) is the same product as temperature indicator lacquer (Temilaq) just in a different form, what would that achieve, exactly?

I never heard of this product called "Tempilstik" before.
Therefore I was not aware that both products are the same thing, but just in a different form.

I've previously googled "Welder's Crayon" and saw other products by other manufactures.

That being said, I will still get around someday to using an alternative product(s) to verify/confirm what my Temilaq is showing me.

The rationale would be similar to... if I have access to a Lab Radar and another person's Lab Radar (and/or a Magnetospeed for that matter), then why would not I use as much as possible to measure my bullet's speed ?

I think would achieve something, exactly
 
My annealing process isn't as sophisticated, nor as expensive, as many. An aluminum sleeve that will fit in a cordless drill to rotate it, that holds the case with only neck and shoulder exposed to the flame.

I prefer a hot flame so the case heats quickly (propane "turbo" torch), and heat it just enough that the neck glows a dull red in a dark-ish room.

The longer it takes to heat the case, the more likely that heat will transfer to the body and head of the case, where I don't want it.

Hot cases are picked from the holder with a gloved hand, and set upright on a bench to cool.

I anneal every 4th firing.
 
You folks need to realize...

This entire post was full of inaccuracies. Brass cases are conventionally not extruded, they are drawn (some organizations have experimented with extrusions, I don't think any were commercially successful). Drawn cases get hard, not soft. Annealing makes them softer, not harder. Quench or no quench has no effect. And the point of final neck annealing is to prevent cracking during storage, not to prevent deformation during loading.

Those are the corrections necessary for just the first few sentences. The rest of it doesn't get any better. And it doesn't ever explain "why the lovely blue hued necks happen in the first place" (the answer to that is oxidation).
 
This entire post was full of inaccuracies. Brass cases are conventionally not extruded, they are drawn (some organizations have experimented with extrusions, I don't think any were commercially successful). Drawn cases get hard, not soft. Annealing makes them softer, not harder. Quench or no quench has no effect. And the point of final neck annealing is to prevent cracking during storage, not to prevent deformation during loading.

Those are the corrections necessary for just the first few sentences. The rest of it doesn't get any better. And it doesn't ever explain "why the lovely blue hued necks happen in the first place" (the answer to that is oxidation).

And the hue should not be used as an indicator to know if your case is annealed or not.
 
My bad, YOU FOLKS ARE CORRECT, cooling the brass rapidly does not change anything.

I've been using the process I described for decades and never had a case failure.

Some old Dominion Ctg Co. cases have close to 60 reloads through them.

I don't think I'll change what I'm doing, but I won't be repeating it again online.

Sorry again for the misleading information

As for the difference between drawing and extrusion, there isn't a lot, other than one method pulls the metal through a die and the other pushes it. The latter is extrusion.

You're right again, but do confuse the nomenclature for the processes, again my bad.
 
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