Trying to get the heck of this case annealing, but their not comming out annealed. Too much heat, not enough. Trying to anneal 348 win's. But the annealing is not good. Standing them in a pan, heating till they just start to turn color(dull blue/brown)then tipping, which is what I've read yet then they still crack on expansion as bad as if not annealed. Thoughts
annealing?
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You're obviously not firing them in a rifle made for 348 Win, so what are you trying to do with them - make them into an obsolete round? If that's the case, the annealing might not be the problem, it could be that you're trying to expand the neck too much at one time causing splits.
As for annealing, I never have a problem. Hold it by the rim rotating the neck and shoulder (top 1/3 of the round) in a propane flame. The moment you notice a change towards dull red (and you will find it getting too hot to hold), stop and drop it onto a soft cloth.
You don't need the mess of water. The idea is that the water prevents too much heat from travelling to the web, and to quench the neck/shoulder. Quenching does nothing, and if you can hold it in your fingers (~140F), there is nowhere near enough heat to affect the web. Another thing - how do you rotate it in the water?
As for annealing, I never have a problem. Hold it by the rim rotating the neck and shoulder (top 1/3 of the round) in a propane flame. The moment you notice a change towards dull red (and you will find it getting too hot to hold), stop and drop it onto a soft cloth.
You don't need the mess of water. The idea is that the water prevents too much heat from travelling to the web, and to quench the neck/shoulder. Quenching does nothing, and if you can hold it in your fingers (~140F), there is nowhere near enough heat to affect the web. Another thing - how do you rotate it in the water?
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I prefer the hold the round in my fingers so I get even heat on all sides, when I can't hold it any more it's hot enough, but not so hot that the case head softens. Sound to me though that you might have some chamber issues. Take a chamber cast or go to a gunsmith.
BattleRife
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The temperature required to achieve good annealing results at home has not been established with any credibility by anybody I have seen, and I take some interest in the subject. If the temperature you have tried is not doing the job, then try going hotter.
The finger twiddle method as described by others is the fastest and easiest and the one I use most myself. But, like all hand methods, is is subject to great inconsistencies. If you are running a low flame, it is entirely possible to blister your fingers without getting the case hot enough. If you are running a high flame, you can heat the brass to the point of orange hot and encounter catastrophic oxidation attack of the brass before your fingers even feel the heat of a sunny day.
Don't tip your brass into water. It makes you look like you don't know what you're doing.
The brass is new. Trying to knock it out to 50 cal. I tried the finger thing and was all over the place. Some I thought for sure were not right did fine. Some I thought were right went on to split. I'm hoping to hear of a jig or gauge, homemade or bought that a guy can use for consistancy
Instead of feeding the info in dribs and drabs, why not just get it all out at the beginning? So you're trying to make 50 Alaskan? The annealing might not the the problem at all. Expanding a neck over 0.150" needs to be done in stages (3-4 I'd say), probably with annealing at each stage. Often the best method is to anneal and then to fireform it.
I use a temp stick pen. I think mine is rated 660 degrees.
I have used a drill set up in the vice at very low speed with the correct size socket in it to drop a shell into. I have also used the finger method.
All you need to do is mark the neck and shoulder of a few to count how many seconds it takes to melt the stick markings. Then away you go.
My propane torch usually takes from 4 to 5 seconds.
I have also noticed there is very slight color change of the brass. It turns a darker yellow or slight orange as you reach the correct temp.
If anyone is interested in a piece of this pen I could sell some of it. It is like chock. And the way I use it, it will last a bazillion years.
Stephen
I have used a drill set up in the vice at very low speed with the correct size socket in it to drop a shell into. I have also used the finger method.
All you need to do is mark the neck and shoulder of a few to count how many seconds it takes to melt the stick markings. Then away you go.
My propane torch usually takes from 4 to 5 seconds.
I have also noticed there is very slight color change of the brass. It turns a darker yellow or slight orange as you reach the correct temp.
If anyone is interested in a piece of this pen I could sell some of it. It is like chock. And the way I use it, it will last a bazillion years.
Stephen
BattleRife
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Assuming he is trying to make .50 Alaskan, a change from .348 to .500 represents a 44% deformation of the brass. C26000 should be capable of withstanding a bit over 60% deformation in a single pass, if starting from the fully annealed condition. Of course, the world is not perfect, so it is likely best to limit yourself to about 40% deformation at a pass. I suggest upping them to .458 in one pass (32% deformation), annealing, then finishing to .500 in a second pass (about 10% deformation).
Never heard of that rule of thumb. The one I've used is to limit myself to increases of no more than about 0.050" in diameter (for cases bigger than 8mm, less for smaller) with annealing, lots of lube and a slow steady push, and had good results. Of course there is still the odd loss.
Isn't increasing the diameter from .348 to .500 actually a 100% deformation of the brass? You are increasing the circumference by diameter squared which is where the stretch is.
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I think dropping the hot portion into water after heating is more like tempering which makes the necks more brittle. The water is a good idea to prevent the heat from travelling down the brass, but they should be allowed to cool down on their own. annealing in a near dark room helps alot with knowing when you have reached your dull red colour.
Quenching has no effect on brass (unlike steel). Brass can be softened by heating, but hardening only occurs when it is "worked", such as occurs when it is sized.
Dropping into water does nothing more than make the brass wet and ready to handle. Factories anneal brass at several stages of its manufacture, and do not use the method, but some home annealers see it as essential.
Dropping into water does nothing more than make the brass wet and ready to handle. Factories anneal brass at several stages of its manufacture, and do not use the method, but some home annealers see it as essential.
"...reached your dull red colour..." Brass doesn't need to be red hot to anneal it. Heated until it changes colour is enough. Tipping the brass over or dropping it into water isn't the part that anneals it. The heat does that. The water just cools it quickly.
BattleRife
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That's 'cuz it isn't a rule of thumb, I just made it up.
The tensile elongation of annealed C26000 (cartridge brass) is usually reported as 62%. The ID circumference of a .348 mouth is 1.09". On a .500 mouth it is 1.57", 44% larger. The inner grains must stretch 44% to accomodate the radial expansion. It is something that, in theory, the brass should be able to handle, assuming it is starting from a fully annealed condition, but theory and reality are always two different places.
You are correct on the math - I used the formula for area!
I have only been able to increase the mouth of brass that much in stages with various dies, or by fireforming all at once, and even then I get a few losses. I've made a lot of 41 Swiss brass from 348 Win and went to 0.430" in two stages (0.375" and 0.430"), and would have used a 40 cal sizer in between if I had one. For fun, I added 0.457" and 0.510" and it worked fine, but the annealing, lube and slow and steady seemed to be the keys.
I have only been able to increase the mouth of brass that much in stages with various dies, or by fireforming all at once, and even then I get a few losses. I've made a lot of 41 Swiss brass from 348 Win and went to 0.430" in two stages (0.375" and 0.430"), and would have used a 40 cal sizer in between if I had one. For fun, I added 0.457" and 0.510" and it worked fine, but the annealing, lube and slow and steady seemed to be the keys.
