Another 44mag thread
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The problem is that a lighter bullet decelerates and looses it's momentum faster than a heavier bullet and shedding all it's energy at impact...impressive on paper but generally not wanted in the field. A 45gr bullet at 1800fps from a .22 WRM rifle and a 230gr bullet at 800fps from a .45ACP handgun have identical energy figures but when both are shot at steel popper targets, the big slow bullets shows a distinctive advantage in their ability to knock them over.
That is NOt energy in foot/pounds... it is momentum... energy expressed in foot pounds weights the factors towards velocity hence the formula; velocity X velocity x mass (gr) / 450,240 = E (ft/lb)... momentum is subtly different, but expresses itself best in resisting cessation of movement or changing direction... hence it enhances penetration. There are other factors at play, however... momentum is a large factor contributing to why the .44 Mag is an effective short range weapon on game animals.
The problem is the imperial system of measurement uses lbs as both a unit of mass and a unit of force. The original unit of mass for the imperial system was a slug. A lb is actually the product of 1 slug multiplied by the acceleration of earths gravity its base units are actually slug ft per second squared. When a lb when used to quantify weight, it is actually the force of gravity on an object.
But since no one really gets it people came up with the idea of using lbs to also describe mass. So now we have pounds-mass (lbm) and pounds-force (lbf)
Momentum is the product of MASS and velocity. It should be measured in slug ft / sec but it is often measured in lbm ft / sec but it's important to stress that this is a pound of mass and does not have the same base units. It is.merely the mass in slugs multiplied .by 32.2 (that by the way is the number for the imperial acceleration of.gravity)
Energy is a measurement of work which is the product of force applied through distance. Once you've done the calculus you get the following for an equation of kinetic energy of a body at constant velocity:
Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared
When you are done with this equation using the base units you have: slugs foot squared per second squared. Which if you look at the base units of a lb of force is the same as saying a foot lbs.
When it comes down to it, though there.are similarities.in the expression of the units the.values are.arrived at very.differently. Rmember the equation:
E = 1/2 m v^2
And that m in this case is the mass in slugs which can be gotten from its weight in lbs divided by 32.2. That is your equation for a bullets energy and it is arrived at much differently then momentum.
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Reading the OP, I can offer this additional bit of insight.
A hunting round will pretty much always have more ballistic energy than a pistol round. Terminal ballistics are tricky but if you want mushrooming and penetration you will need energy. You can hunt deer out to 100 yards with magnum pistol ammo but nothing bigger. Deer will die if shot in the kill zone with these rounds. Larger game might not. The hide and ribs of a moose could deflect a .44 bullet and leave you with a wounded animal.
A hunting round will pretty much always have more ballistic energy than a pistol round. Terminal ballistics are tricky but if you want mushrooming and penetration you will need energy. You can hunt deer out to 100 yards with magnum pistol ammo but nothing bigger. Deer will die if shot in the kill zone with these rounds. Larger game might not. The hide and ribs of a moose could deflect a .44 bullet and leave you with a wounded animal.
I'm not sure "Lever38" is going to help you with his description... so in layman's terms; For kinetic energy expressed in foot pounds (ingnore the above for a moment) the velocity factor is squared... as I said;
KE (ft/lb) =
Velocity X Velocity X Mass
-----------------------------
450,240
Momentum = Velocity X Mass
The conversion factor for momentum will depend on the units of measurement you choose to express it in... suffice it to say, the following is generally true (and this is why large slow bullets work to make game dead);
If you apply an equal force to two objects of differing weight, the lighter of the two will be faster and may well have more kinetic energy (ft/lbs) at the muzzle... the heavier object (bullet) will be slower, but will possess greater momentum... the lighter bullet will rapidly shed its energy as the distance increases (or when it contacts an object; "flesh" as an example), the heavier/slower object will resist shedding its energy (and/or changing its course) to a greater degree than the lighter/faster bullet, due to its higher momentum... You often hear hunters comparing the .30/30 to the .44 Mag and there is generally a debate as to which has greater effectiveness as a hunting round on deer... the truth is that the heavier slower .44 mag (Don't jump on me there are other factor's at work, such as bullet weight, barrel length, load capacity etc... but generally...) trumps the lighter faster .30/30 out to approximately 100 yards (or so), due to it's higher Momentum (and yes, frontal area also comes into play)... In general terms...this is how it plays out on paper and in the field.
The "pickle in the pudding" so to speak is trajectory... becuase all the energy or momentum in the world matters not a whit, if you can't hit what you are aiming at... the high momentum heavy/slow bullet will have an arching trajectory... and it will be more difficult to apply it accurately... inside 100 yards (maybe 200 yards depending on cailber and the talent of the shooter) it doesn't matter, but as distance increases the heavy bullet will drop rapidly (but will still maintain a high percentage of its original energy, as in; it's still lethal)... at long range you need to find the compromise between velocity (trajectory) and energy/momentum... this is where I say; "to each their own."
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Same can be said for ANY bullet for that matter...No telling what a bullet is going to do once it makes contact.. This is the reason I shy away from frontal, and Texas heart shots...
Even a 50 BMG
[youtube]BJD_3eKcIRQ[/youtube]
All I was trying to do was explain why the units are so misleading. People see foot lbs and figure the math should somehow employ weight and length. You are welcome to elaborate but in your elaboration you got a number of things wrong.I'm not sure "Lever38" is going to help you with his description... so in layman's terms; For kinetic energy expressed in foot pounds (ingnore the above for a moment) the velocity factor is squared... as I said;
KE (ft/lb) =
Velocity X Velocity X Mass
-----------------------------
450,240
Momentum = Velocity X Mass
The conversion factor for momentum will depend on the units of measurement you choose to express it in... suffice it to say, the following is generally true (and this is why large slow bullets work to make game dead);
If you apply an equal force to two objects of differing weight, the lighter of the two will be faster and may well have more kinetic energy (ft/lbs) at the muzzle... the heavier object (bullet) will be slower, but will possess greater momentum... the lighter bullet will rapidly shed its energy as the distance increases (or when it contacts an object; "flesh" as an example), the heavier/slower object will resist shedding its energy (and/or changing its course) to a greater degree than the lighter/faster bullet, due to its higher momentum... You often hear hunters comparing the .30/30 to the .44 Mag and there is generally a debate as to which has greater effectiveness as a hunting round on deer... the truth is that the heavier slower .44 mag (Don't jump on me there are other factor's at work, such as bullet weight, barrel length, load capacity etc... but generally...) trumps the lighter faster .30/30 out to approximately 100 yards (or so), due to it's higher Momentum (and yes, frontal area also comes into play)... In general terms...this is how it plays out on paper and in the field.
The "pickle in the pudding" so to speak is trajectory... becuase all the energy or momentum in the world matters not a whit, if you can't hit what you are aiming at... the high momentum heavy/slow bullet will have an arching trajectory... and it will be more difficult to apply it accurately... inside 100 yards (maybe 200 yards depending on cailber and the talent of the shooter) it doesn't matter, but as distance increases the heavy bullet will drop rapidly (but will still maintain a high percentage of its original energy, as in; it's still lethal)... at long range you need to find the compromise between velocity (trajectory) and energy/momentum... this is where I say; "to each their own."
1. When you leave out the factors you do the world a disservice.
2. "shedding energy" when inside an animal is what kills it, early bullet fragmentatio notwithstanding - I said terminal ballistics were tricky. if you are seeking penetration and expansion, on two identical bullets, it will depend.on the square of the velocities. It was the penetration of projectiles into different media that first allowed physicist to develop and understand the concept of energy and the v squared relationship.
3. "Big and slow kills better" is an adage that aplies only when talking about bullets of comparable kinetic energy. E.g. a 180 gr bullet fired from a 30-06 (2913 ft lbs ME) will kill better than a 130 gr bullet from a .270 (3060 ft lbs ME). When When you try to make the same statement to compare a low energy pistol round to a hunting round you are making a mistake.
4. Energy kills. Momentum helps shape the way the energy is used terminally (hence all the ammo manufacturer hype about weight retention) but energy kills. A .44 does not have sufficient energy to dependably kill CXP3 game with one shot, even at close range (deer yes, large game no). A 30-30 does. I'm not advocating moose hunting with a 30-30, though I've seen it done but if you want to dependably down large game with a well placed kill zone shot you should have at least 1200 ft lbs of energy at point of impact (Chuck Hawks). A 30-30 has it out to 100 yards a 44 doesn't even have it at the muzzle.
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just having some fun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
A gas checked Bullet Will Not lead up
2X on the cast bullet with gas check (A soft cast bullet will expand and preform Very Well 240 - 250 -260 -300 G bullet) No Hollow points
...hmm....well... Not really true. Yes to the energy shedding but not the perfect terminal.performance. Dead animal is a good thing but the best terminal performance is: entry> expansion> vital damage> exit with not much energy left. The bullet expansion and exit are important to ensure a speedy death. When a bullet doesn't exit you don't have a path for blood release. This can wind up with internal clotting giving the animal sufficient time for one last run.
I've said it before. Terminal ballistics are tricky. You want exit but not a quick exit so no FMJs. Don't get me wrong, a .44 bullet in the heart will make for a very dead animal but one through a lung and then lodged in the tissue without exit could easily lead to an extended chase.
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
I started deer hunting nearly 50 years ago with a Model 1892 Winchester rifle in 44-40 ... and successfully took
several deer with it... then had it converted to 44 Magnum (back in the day, '92s were easy to come by and
relatively cheap ! ) Used it to take several more deer, a pair of moose and a black bear. Later came to own
a Model 1894 Marlin and one of the old style Ruger Carbines. Used mostly Winchester ammo ... standard flat
nosed stuff and then later handloaded the Lyman 429421 Keith SWC hard cast. No issues with any of the firearms or
ammo. Very effective caliber and ammo for short range stuff in the bush.
The Ruger is a great little gun to carry for "doggers" and still hunting. The one I had was equipped with a receiver (peep) sight. I changed up the front sight to a larger white bead and kept it painted with a dab of florescent orange paint. I used the receiver
sight "as was" for sighting-in, but unscrewed the disc and used the larger threaded hole for hunting. Very quick handling !!!
Go ahead, buy it ... and enjoy using it ! Sounds like you already regret selling the first one you had.
several deer with it... then had it converted to 44 Magnum (back in the day, '92s were easy to come by and
relatively cheap ! ) Used it to take several more deer, a pair of moose and a black bear. Later came to own
a Model 1894 Marlin and one of the old style Ruger Carbines. Used mostly Winchester ammo ... standard flat
nosed stuff and then later handloaded the Lyman 429421 Keith SWC hard cast. No issues with any of the firearms or
ammo. Very effective caliber and ammo for short range stuff in the bush.
The Ruger is a great little gun to carry for "doggers" and still hunting. The one I had was equipped with a receiver (peep) sight. I changed up the front sight to a larger white bead and kept it painted with a dab of florescent orange paint. I used the receiver
sight "as was" for sighting-in, but unscrewed the disc and used the larger threaded hole for hunting. Very quick handling !!!
Go ahead, buy it ... and enjoy using it ! Sounds like you already regret selling the first one you had.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Huh???
ummm.....you might want put down the crack pipe..... You apparently have no clue on this topic...we are talking about *rifles*
Here is a Ballistics comparison of .30-30 Winchester and .44 Remington Mag. Ballistics that I am going to give you are as if the .30-30 was fired from a 24" barrel and the .44 fired from a 20" barrel. Now as you know there aren't many .30-30 rifles with a 24" barrel so I can guarantee you that those numbers would show significantly less performance if they were referencing .30-30 carbines. You have to read the fine print on ballistics charts and web pages citing them to see this.
.30-30 Winchester firing Remington Core-Lokt 170gr SP
Velocity (ft/sec)
Muzzle - 2200
100 yd - 1895
200 yd - 1619
300 yd - 1381
Energy (ft. lbs.)
Muzzle - 1827
100 yd - 1355
200 yd - 989
300 yd - 720
.44 Remington Mag firing Remington Express 240gr SP
Velocity (ft/sec)
Muzzle - 1760
100 yd - 1380
200 yd - 1114
300 yd - 970
Energy (ft. lbs.)
Muzzle - 1650
100 yd - 1015
200 yd - 661
300 yd - 501
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Wow you are a snide one aren't you. Well congratulations to you. You managed to find some ballistic table for a hot .44 mag round that has significant muzzle energy. Well guess what, I'm still right. It doesn't have sufficient energy at 100 yards for a clean kill on something like a moose (please read my post again, I'm talking about CXP3 game). Oh, and guess what, the 30-30 does. Furthermore you can go all over the internet and the same will be true of any round you find.
Oh and while you're at it, you may want to look at how fast your 44 is loosing velocity and energy. The 30-30 is out performing it on that too. Didn't you say those heavier bullets would maintain their velocity better. No sorry. Ballistic coefficient isn't quite the same on a pistol round as with a propper hunting round.
Now I hope will notice, I managed to correct your spurious information without any reference to a suspected drug habbit. Perhaps you could afford me the same courtesy on what will, no doubt, be an interesting rebuttal.
Wrong Way
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
wait....MANGED to find A ballistic table for a HOT 44 mag round? REALLY???
Dude, those are STANDARD ballistics for a NORMAL Remington FACTORY load.... My god, do some research before posting your so-called "expertise" on the Internet.
Start by looking up RIFLE ballistics for the round you are spouting these pearls of wisdom about, learn a thing or two, THEN come tell those of us that know better how we are wrong.
WW...who has actually killed moose with my "underpowered" 44
LMAO....friggin experts.....
ORLY?? here: tell me the 270gr BB is inadequate too....humour me:
Ballistics Table in Yards
270 buffalo bore 44 mag 270 gr., 0.193 B.C.
Muzzle 25 50 75 100 150 200
Velocity (fps)1900 1804 1712 1623 1538 1383 1250
Energy ft.-lb 2164 1951 1756 1579 1419 1147 936
ooops..... LOL
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Lever38 have you ever shot game of any kind with a .44 Rem Mag? How about a .30-30? Some of us here have. I, for one, can assure you that both work very well within their range limitations when the proper bullet is selected. True ballistics for the .30-30 are at least 100fps short of the factory published velocities for most loads (same can be said for most cartridges actually) so comparing paper ballistics is pointless. I'll take the 44 Rem Mag with a 300gr. XTP or a 300gr FPHC over the .30-30 with any bullet to shoot deer, moose or bear. out to 125yds. With a handload and a 170gr bullet I'll push the .30-30 to 175yds. Beyond that there are much better choices that will ensure you have the proper penetration to reach the vitals.
BTW, energy doesn't kill. It is a disruption to the central nervous system or a loss of blood pressure in the circulatory system that kills...which is the reason many of us here also bag game every year with a bow!
BTW, energy doesn't kill. It is a disruption to the central nervous system or a loss of blood pressure in the circulatory system that kills...which is the reason many of us here also bag game every year with a bow!
So you zeroed in on a mispoken sentence and you think it makes you right. Ok that's a "standard" loading, albeit probably still one of the higher energy ones. That does not change the fact that I'm right about the performance of the two rounds that you yourself have put forward. The 30-30 maintains a higher energy throught its travel it also doesn't shed energy because it has a better drag coefficient. When that 30-30 strikes the mushroomed bullet will do more damage than the 44.
And before you spout off more working class hero garbage, I have killed a moose with a 44 mag fired from a win 92. We were out in muley country near my fathers place. We had a tag for a cow but did not expect to see one in the valley because we never had before so I took the lever because I really like levers. I managed to get within 30 yards because it's really dense brush. it was probably dead on the first shot but she just stood there so my father took a 2nd with his 300 Savage. Both shots hit lung. That was a while ago.
I'm not saying it can't be done. Hell it was done all the time a hundred years ago with black powder 44-40s but a wounded animal was not quite.the same concern.
We are talking about ballistic performance and it is true that for real one shot reliability you should maintain 1200 ft lbs or better. Just like it is true that a hunting round out performs a pistol round for hunting (weird huh). So why don't you stop with the machismo and recognize that other people know things too.
