Another Model 1894
- Thread starter hired-gun12
- Start date
- Location
- Winnipeg,Man.
If the gun is that early....would not the serial numbers be in script on the lower tang behind the lever?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no, not on the 1894s. All 1894s had their s/n's located at the lower, front edge of the receiver band behind the forearm or forend, the same as the 1892s. 1886s, on the other hand, are stamped on the lower tang, as were 1895s, 1873's, and 1876s.
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Nice to see the pics. Even nicer is you only have one damaged screw on the receiver bottom. Usually rifles this old have damaged screw slots all over. It's going to be interesting to find the location of the serial #.
Here's a link that explains possible issues of the early serial #'s. The second and 3rd paragraph may be relevant
ht tp:// antiquearmsinc.com/1894-winchester-1st-model-src.htm
Had to split up the link a bit due to posting rules.
Here's a link that explains possible issues of the early serial #'s. The second and 3rd paragraph may be relevant
ht tp:// antiquearmsinc.com/1894-winchester-1st-model-src.htm
Had to split up the link a bit due to posting rules.
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Hi Senior, Mooncoon was giving me an option to make brass for 32-40 as it is a little harder to come by. I don't want to use up my origional factory ammo to reload. I believe your suggestion is just "normal reloading" with 32-40 brass. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also any other suggestions are always appreciated. After all, we are all Gunnutz here.
Maybe a general observation; there are lots of guns chambered in obsolete cartridges and it would be a mistake to believe ammunition either cannot be made or is difficult to make. Start with a copy of Cartridges of the World and go through it looking for current shells with the same base diameter and the same or greater length as what you are trying to make and hopefully the same rim configuration. If you are necking down, you require a series of dies going down in steps of .020 to .025" or the case will crumple. The most extreme I can think of is the 8 mm Siamese mauser made out of 45-70 shells --- doable but lots of steps. For something like a 32-40, take the decapping pin out of the die, anneal the case and form the body then anneal the neck again and fireform the neck out.
Total case length can be a bit shorter if you can't find a shell long enough but accuracy will begin to suffer as you approach .1" too short. I have also made rimless cases out of rimmed cases using a metal lathe (.236 Lee from .303 Brit) but that is a fair amount of work and fiddling around.
cheers mooncoon
Total case length can be a bit shorter if you can't find a shell long enough but accuracy will begin to suffer as you approach .1" too short. I have also made rimless cases out of rimmed cases using a metal lathe (.236 Lee from .303 Brit) but that is a fair amount of work and fiddling around.
cheers mooncoon
hired-gun12
New member
- Location
- Red Deer, Alberta
I've forwarded Matt74 a few more pics of the rifle to post. I am lost with the serial number issue. The paperwork that I have for the rifle cannot be validated now, maybe my grandfather lied to the cops when filling out the registration for the firearm? lol.
Any additional help is appreciated.
hg12
Any additional help is appreciated.
hg12
The usual reason I have heard for these non-numbered rifles is:
Large catalogue suppliers wanted to sell them at a retail price below that dictated by Winchester. Winchester wouldn't supply to them as a result.
Undaunted they arranged with normal retail outlets to buy large numbers of rifles through them and paid them slightly more than their cost. The catalogue company then had the serial numbers removed and the receiver re-finished and sold them. Removal of the number prevented Winchester from figuring out which of their approved retailers sold them out.
I have examined one like this and we finally found a serial number (?) stamped on the right edge of the lower tang. Different character size than normally used by Winchester and may not even correspond to the original number. Remove your butt stock and see if you have anything like this. I can see a catalogue company asking this to be done for their own records but still concealing the source from Winchester.
Large catalogue suppliers wanted to sell them at a retail price below that dictated by Winchester. Winchester wouldn't supply to them as a result.
Undaunted they arranged with normal retail outlets to buy large numbers of rifles through them and paid them slightly more than their cost. The catalogue company then had the serial numbers removed and the receiver re-finished and sold them. Removal of the number prevented Winchester from figuring out which of their approved retailers sold them out.
I have examined one like this and we finally found a serial number (?) stamped on the right edge of the lower tang. Different character size than normally used by Winchester and may not even correspond to the original number. Remove your butt stock and see if you have anything like this. I can see a catalogue company asking this to be done for their own records but still concealing the source from Winchester.
John Spartan
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Just a little more to the right...
Checking out the serial number #17876 you provided in the first posting of this thread, there is no entry for this serial number in the Winchester factory records located at the Cody Firearms Museum in Cody, Wyoming as per serial number search - the result which I got back earlier today.
Given this, I think the gun needs a thorough going over, including removal of the fore and butt stocks to see what further information in the form of numbers, symbols, stampings, markings, etc. that can be gleaned from this gun.
One could also compare features found with known 1894s using Madis, Renneberg, and other references to validate authenticity.
It would be interesting to photocopy/scan the RCMP info to see the information entered.
Given this, I think the gun needs a thorough going over, including removal of the fore and butt stocks to see what further information in the form of numbers, symbols, stampings, markings, etc. that can be gleaned from this gun.
One could also compare features found with known 1894s using Madis, Renneberg, and other references to validate authenticity.
It would be interesting to photocopy/scan the RCMP info to see the information entered.
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Very interesting for sure! Looks like the number was professionally removed a long time ago indeed, gives some credence to what stocker says. I don't have enough info in the old noggin to confirm reading that, and this is the first I have seen like that.
Its still easy to get components to reload for the 32-40, RCBS has some good cowboy dies and Winchester still makes brass. Bullet barn puts out 32-40 bullets (depending on diameter of your old bore) so you would be good to go. I just got a 1904 1894 in 32-40, but unfortunately some country gunsmith took the pipe wrench and a screwdriver to the barrel at some point in the past, so it needs a lot of work to get back to business.
Its still easy to get components to reload for the 32-40, RCBS has some good cowboy dies and Winchester still makes brass. Bullet barn puts out 32-40 bullets (depending on diameter of your old bore) so you would be good to go. I just got a 1904 1894 in 32-40, but unfortunately some country gunsmith took the pipe wrench and a screwdriver to the barrel at some point in the past, so it needs a lot of work to get back to business.
Hi Guys,
John Spartan: Looks like we need to better coordinate our activities as I emailed Cody yesterday as well for hg12....with the same result. Nothing in the records. Looks like we're both down 1 less search now!
I have heard that same story offered by Stocker, and may be a possible hypothesis. I am curious as to why, however, there is no entry at all, period, in the ledger at Cody for that s/n. Even if it was not correct, I would have expected details for another rifle. Interesting...
Here are a few more pics. I would have had them up early, but a man has to work too!
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That magazine end cap has me wondering too...doesn't look like Winchester work, but I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!
Matt
John Spartan: Looks like we need to better coordinate our activities as I emailed Cody yesterday as well for hg12....with the same result. Nothing in the records. Looks like we're both down 1 less search now!
I have heard that same story offered by Stocker, and may be a possible hypothesis. I am curious as to why, however, there is no entry at all, period, in the ledger at Cody for that s/n. Even if it was not correct, I would have expected details for another rifle. Interesting...
Here are a few more pics. I would have had them up early, but a man has to work too!
That magazine end cap has me wondering too...doesn't look like Winchester work, but I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!
Matt
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
No worries Matt! RL has a way of sinking the ships of good intentions, I am responsible for my fair share. Whenever you get time and remember, I will be around. Till then I will enjoy reading about this unfolding mystery gun
John Spartan
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Just a little more to the right...
Matt, on the searches, I agree with you.
This gun needs to be posted on the WACA site to get more information from the collectors over there.
This gun needs to be posted on the WACA site to get more information from the collectors over there.
- Location
- Winnipeg,Man.
I think it is an interesting gun. mysterious and questionable too. i beleive it may be a salesman sample and has a few add-ons . therefore no need for serial numbers. The cap may be such as to slip a leather strap over and the butt swivel providing a carrying strap. There may have well been a heavy wire loop that attached to cap knob but has been removed. Much like the hanger on my 38-55 SRC. Just my 2 cents worth.
Yup,
I advised him yesterday that he should post this info on WACA, and that the folks over there are very friendly and knowledgable. He went ahead and registered for the site, just not sure if it has been accepted yet. When he does post there, I'll out the pics up there for him too. Should be interesting to see what the fellas have to say.
Yup, the front nose cap definetly looks like it should have a leather sling hooked over the end of it as well. That was what I thought when I first saw it, especially given it is fitted with a rear sling swivel. Don't think both are Winchester work though, given that the rear swivel appears to me be too far forward....they were in the 3 to 4 inch range...can't recall which...from the rear of the buttplate...at least on any I have seen or have seen in my reference books...unless the placement that far forward has something to do with balancing a 1/2 mag rifle out....hmmm...Anyway, kinda neat looking though for sure. Be nice to find an old period leather sling to go on it!
Matt
I advised him yesterday that he should post this info on WACA, and that the folks over there are very friendly and knowledgable. He went ahead and registered for the site, just not sure if it has been accepted yet. When he does post there, I'll out the pics up there for him too. Should be interesting to see what the fellas have to say.
Yup, the front nose cap definetly looks like it should have a leather sling hooked over the end of it as well. That was what I thought when I first saw it, especially given it is fitted with a rear sling swivel. Don't think both are Winchester work though, given that the rear swivel appears to me be too far forward....they were in the 3 to 4 inch range...can't recall which...from the rear of the buttplate...at least on any I have seen or have seen in my reference books...unless the placement that far forward has something to do with balancing a 1/2 mag rifle out....hmmm...Anyway, kinda neat looking though for sure. Be nice to find an old period leather sling to go on it!
Matt
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- Location
- Winnipeg,Man.
Yup....I seen a knob like that when I was a kid. My grandpa had a gun that had the "split" leather sling that slipped over it. I do not know if it was a Winnie but he carried it when he went to the pasture for the cows.
hired-gun12
New member
- Location
- Red Deer, Alberta
Guys,
I haven't been accepted to the WACA site yet, still waiting. You are correct Matt about the rear swivel, it is not original. I am not sure what it is. The front "knob attachment" looks original. I am going to talk with my father and see if he can recall anything about the history of this rifle.
In the meantime I am going to disassemble it and hunt for a serial number.
hg12
I haven't been accepted to the WACA site yet, still waiting. You are correct Matt about the rear swivel, it is not original. I am not sure what it is. The front "knob attachment" looks original. I am going to talk with my father and see if he can recall anything about the history of this rifle.
In the meantime I am going to disassemble it and hunt for a serial number.
hg12
hired-gun12
New member
- Location
- Red Deer, Alberta
Its been a while, but here is an update. My Dad talked with some old friends, one of whom is in a home but has a sharp memory and remembers my grandfather with the rifle when they were young.
I took it to a gunsmith here in the city and he pulled the rear stock. The serial number is hand stamped in the lower tang. The number is clear. I am not sure what this means with the searches performed. But the gunsmith, said he had heard of this serial number location with older guns.
Any additional thoughts are welcome. I am extremely busy with work and a move to a new house, but will pull out the rifle and post some pictures when able.
hg12
I took it to a gunsmith here in the city and he pulled the rear stock. The serial number is hand stamped in the lower tang. The number is clear. I am not sure what this means with the searches performed. But the gunsmith, said he had heard of this serial number location with older guns.
Any additional thoughts are welcome. I am extremely busy with work and a move to a new house, but will pull out the rifle and post some pictures when able.
hg12
