Another newbie needs help - Too many choices

[mockba77]

A pump action would not be my choice for skeet or sporting clays, but I have shot clean rounds of skeet with a 20 gauge Wingmaster, and I have seen some impressive sporting clays shooting with a pump action. I have also seen some very good sporting clays shooters using semi autos, even though I prefer an O/U.

I knew that my answer would get that response eventually. You are absolutely right: you can, of course, shoot clays on report easy enough with a pump gun. The only thing is, they are rubbish at pairs as you can't reload fast enough and you loose a target every time you pump. In general, pump guns are lighter and therefore produce more felt recoil. The added step in having to pump the gun doesn't help to shoot well skeet or sporting (where the majority of the targets is pairs).
I have seen folks shoot pump guns as fast as I can pull the trigger twice on my o/u. These folks have been shooting pump guns all their lives. But! If you want to do well at clays with a pump, you have to be ready to waste a lot of money on clays with the one that gets away each time while you are learning. By the end of the day, the amount of wasted money might be sufficient to purchase a semi-auto or o/u from the beginning.

 

[Cardamonfrost]

You're a newbie. People on here are giving you advice who have owned dozens of different shotguns over many decades. Buy a Wingmaster.....not an "870".....a "870 Wingmaster". Be smart....buy a high condition used one. You will have it for as long as you shoot. And it will easily fit into your budget right now.

Hard to argue with this.
C

 

[Cardamonfrost]

I knew that my answer would get that response eventually. You are absolutely right: you can, of course, shoot clays on report easy enough with a pump gun. The only thing is, they are rubbish at pairs as you can't reload fast enough and you loose a target every time you pump. In general, pump guns are lighter and therefore produce more felt recoil. The added step in having to pump the gun doesn't help to shoot well skeet or sporting (where the majority of the targets is pairs).
I have seen folks shoot pump guns as fast as I can pull the trigger twice on my o/u. These folks have been shooting pump guns all their lives. But! If you want to do well at clays with a pump, you have to be ready to waste a lot of money on clays with the one that gets away each time while you are learning. By the end of the day, the amount of wasted money might be sufficient to purchase a semi-auto or o/u from the beginning.

?? I can shoot pairs all day long with a pump gun. The only reason I don't these days, is so the ref can easily see my action is safe because its broken. The thing is, you need a quality pump (WM, M12, M31, etc), not an 870 jam master....

OP, don't fall for arguments like above. There is no wasted money, only learning. I know several people who have shot the US Open with pump guns. They were vintage wingmasters for that matter. Personally, I am a M12 type of guy for pumps, and can shoot it as fast as any of my other shotguns.

On older used guns, the wood may be nicer, the bluing is real and odds say, the action has worn in or been slicked up real nice. And they are (relatively) cheap, and retain their resale value.

That said, if you can get some more money together, O/U are a joy to shoot in sporting events. But when learning, I'm not sure I could justify spending the 3k required for a quality used one.

C

 

[Ranger Dave]

I have a Winchester SXP Trap, and it's been good so far after 400-500 rounds through it during trap. It is reliable, affordable, and in the combo model (18" and 28" barrel combo) versatile. As a "starting" shotgun I don't see anything wrong with it, though you do not get the customization options of something like a 870 or Mossberg 500. The speed pump (inertia assist) is interesting and does speed up the pumping action, and so far it's eaten everything I've thrown into it without complaint. Challenger, Winchester, Federal, Remington, low brass, high brass, 2 3/4", 3", target load, magnum... no problems.

Nice shotgun. I have a close friend show shoots with a Browning BPS trap model.

 

[alltieear]

I knew that my answer would get that response eventually. You are absolutely right: you can, of course, shoot clays on report easy enough with a pump gun. The only thing is, they are rubbish at pairs as you can't reload fast enough and you loose a target every time you pump. In general, pump guns are lighter and therefore produce more felt recoil. The added step in having to pump the gun doesn't help to shoot well skeet or sporting (where the majority of the targets is pairs).
I have seen folks shoot pump guns as fast as I can pull the trigger twice on my o/u. These folks have been shooting pump guns all their lives. But! If you want to do well at clays with a pump, you have to be ready to waste a lot of money on clays with the one that gets away each time while you are learning. By the end of the day, the amount of wasted money might be sufficient to purchase a semi-auto or o/u from the beginning.

Waste money on missed shots?

We talking bout practice.

 

[FLHTCUI]

I knew that my answer would get that response eventually. You are absolutely right: you can, of course, shoot clays on report easy enough with a pump gun. The only thing is, they are rubbish at pairs as you can't reload fast enough and you loose a target every time you pump.

Really, they are rubbish you say?
Come tell that to the guys at Vancouver Gun Club in Richmond who use 870 Wingmaster (Trap Models with Extra full choke) who run the course for fun and miss nary a target. The guys are ranked in the Top 10 locally too btw.
Seriously, the OP is new and trying to cover as much ground as possible , but in reality there isnt a one gun fits all clay gun out there.

Buy an 870 Wingmaster with Remchokes and call it a day (having fun) and learning a few things before being dismissed by the O/U crowd.

Smoke That clay !
Rob

 

[Ranger Dave]

I knew that my answer would get that response eventually. You are absolutely right: you can, of course, shoot clays on report easy enough with a pump gun. The only thing is, they are rubbish at pairs as you can't reload fast enough and you loose a target every time you pump. In general, pump guns are lighter and therefore produce more felt recoil. The added step in having to pump the gun doesn't help to shoot well skeet or sporting (where the majority of the targets is pairs).
I have seen folks shoot pump guns as fast as I can pull the trigger twice on my o/u. These folks have been shooting pump guns all their lives. But! If you want to do well at clays with a pump, you have to be ready to waste a lot of money on clays with the one that gets away each time while you are learning. By the end of the day, the amount of wasted money might be sufficient to purchase a semi-auto or o/u from the beginning.

I shoot the best with an O/U but...

All I had at first was a 870 Express. I can smash doubles no issues with it. I've been shooting it for 20+ years now.

$2500 vs $300. If you like the game, move on and buy an O/U. There is always a use for a pump shotgun. I always take the 870 hunting.

I travel to the US all the time. Go check out their ranges and clubs. Remington donates 870 Express shotguns to high school clubs. Saying a pump is no good for someone starting out is a joke. A lot of people start out with a pump shotgun. Again, I would look at a Wingmaster or BPS and enjoy smashing clays.

 

[roastpuff]

Nice shotgun. I have a close friend show shoots with a Browning BPS trap model.

Thanks. Picked this up to start shooting trap and plinking at the range with. So far it's fun but I have to improve more - shooting about 15/25-20/25 on average, I want to do better!

 

[mockba77]

OK, pump action fans, as I can see I just opened a can of worms. Here is my IMHO:

I'm not sure I could justify spending the 3k required for a quality used one.

No need to spend 3K. I had a Stevens 512 Gold Wing and it was a great, affordable shotgun. Of course, it's not a Beretta 686/682/692/DT11 or a Krieghoff K80 or a Blaser F3. But for learning, it's a great O/U shotgun.

Waste money on missed shots? We talking bout practice.

Yes, wasting money. As I said earlier, you can shoot pairs with a pump but it requires much more practice (read money) to compare with O/U. Every time the shooter misses the second target due to a pump reloading, he/she loses money (the price of the clay + ammo) because there is no hit. The shooter can not figure out why he/she missed the target and what needs to be done to improve it because he/she spends extra time reloading the gun. With semi or O/U, a shooter can concentrate on aiming, on shooting position, on barrel motion and stay on target for the second shot. This is much more important than simply burning the ammo jerking the gun back and forth, working the action. Additionally, the advantage of the O/U is that a shooter can have 2 different chokes, the gun usually has less recoil and the barrel life is much longer. Also, it's easy to maintain: clean the barrels and receiver, grease the pivot, oil the barrel, and you're done. There isn't much that can go wrong with a pump but there's even less with an o/u or sxs.

Really, they are rubbish you say?
Come tell that to the guys at Vancouver Gun Club in Richmond who use 870 Wingmaster (Trap Models with Extra full choke) who run the course for fun and miss nary a target.

Yes, rubbish. If one guy out of thousand shoots well the pairs with a pump gun, it doesn't mean that the pump is a great gun for that. There are people who still shoot 1000m targets with open sights and old rifles. But the majority of us use heavy barrels and high magnification scopes to do that. I agree, there isn't a "one gun fits all". I have O/U, pump, semi and they all are great guns for a certain purpose. I was just saying that for shooting sporting clays, a pump gun is not the best choice.

Saying a pump is no good for someone starting out is a joke. A lot of people start out with a pump shotgun.

Yes, they start and after awhile they buy semi or O/U. Why? Because they are better. Pump action guns have only one advantage - they are less expensive to buy.

 

[Cardamonfrost]

I'd rather have a quality used pump than a used bargain O/U. I have found, there are no bargain O/Us...

I would be curious to see what a used 512 goes for when it gets moved out of the collection. I know what WM/M12/M31 go for - what you paid, or maybe more.

C

OK, pump action fans, as I can see I just opened a can of worms. Here is my IMHO:

No need to spend 3K. I had a Stevens 512 Gold Wing and it was a great, affordable shotgun. Of course, it's not a Beretta 686/682/692/DT11 or a Krieghoff K80 or a Blaser F3. But for learning, it's a great O/U shotgun.

 

[mockba77]

I'd rather have a quality used pump than a used bargain O/U. I have found, there are no bargain O/Us...

I would be curious to see what a used 512 goes for when it gets moved out of the collection. I know what WM/M12/M31 go for - what you paid, or maybe more.

C

I sold mine with a refinished oiled stock (the factory stock is painted) two years ago with a few hundred shots through the barrel for $500 or $550. I don't remember exactly. I don't know how much they are right now. But it was an excellent, reliable and affordable O/U. That gun fitted me better than a Beretta 682 with a trap stock that I owned at the same time.

 

[cdn1canhunt]

Yes, they start and after awhile they buy semi or O/U. Why? Because they are better. Pump action guns have only one advantage - they are less expensive to buy.

This is a very a incorrect statement people buy pump guns for their reliability. An O/U only offers 2 shots not 3 and Some semi autos have a reputation for being unreliable ( jam o matic didn't come to name by accident) and will not cycle all shell sizes. You typically don't see that with a pump gun. They go bang when you pull the trigger! And they eject shells the good old fashioned way!

 

[FLHTCUI]

We can discuss the merits of O/U vs Pump all day long.
But, the OP is trying to fit three different activities into one gun.
Ain't gonna work is my take.
Rob

 

[Nikuser]

We can discuss the merits of O/U vs Pump all day long.
But, the OP is trying to fit three different activities into one gun.
Ain't gonna work is my take.
Rob

Thanks so much to all for your comments and opinions. In the end they are just that. Opinions. Though, as #11 said, opinions of experienced individuals which will carry more wait then that of a sales clerc trying to make his commission.

It always seems as though there are lots of ppl who fixate on the "sporting clays" comments. I possibly didn't make it clear enough, but I don't intend to shoot sporting clays regularly with said firearm. As most of you do or have done, you need to learn how each shotgun shoots. Be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun. Taking a hunting rifle to the range to learn how it shoots or what rounds/loads, etc it likes doesn't mean its a range gun. Although, I may be wrong. Maybe I shouldn't assume most people get to know their firearms. Since I AM new to this. I should stop making an ASS OUT OF U and ME.

Don't take this the wrong way. I am TRULY appreciative of ALL the comments I have received. This is an extremely open and giving community of like minded individual. Even though you're not all in agreement, all the time.

Also, hunting season isn't for several more months and I definitely intend to put several hundred shells through it before trying my hand at harvesting any size game. It's definitely going to be a hunting shotgun. Eventually, I'll start a new post on what you would recommend for my first O/U (if I catch the clay bug). By then, I'll try to save up at least 2k$.

I thought I had decided on the 500 combo because of it's versatility, but I will have to look more closely at the "870 Wingmaster" in the EE page. After all this, I'm right back to where I started. Most say Wingmaster. Guess I'll have to leave it at that.

 

[Nikuser]

You're a newbie. People on here are giving you advice who have owned dozens of different shotguns over many decades. Buy a Wingmaster.....not an "870".....a "870 Wingmaster". Be smart....buy a high condition used one. You will have it for as long as you shoot. And it will easily fit into your budget right now.

Very wise! I will spend a little more time on the EE page. Thanks.

 

[Nikuser]

I have a Winchester SXP Trap, and it's been good so far after 400-500 rounds through it during trap. It is reliable, affordable, and in the combo model (18" and 28" barrel combo) versatile. As a "starting" shotgun I don't see anything wrong with it, though you do not get the customization options of something like a 870 or Mossberg 500. The speed pump (inertia assist) is interesting and does speed up the pumping action, and so far it's eaten everything I've thrown into it without complaint. Challenger, Winchester, Federal, Remington, low brass, high brass, 2 3/4", 3", target load, magnum... no problems.

Very nice indeed! I am starting to like the wood finish. In the end, since I don't know anyone (distant acquaintances maybe) who hunts, I may just end up spending so much time shooting clays, thats i'll want sporting SG sooner than I first anticipated. Only time will tell.

Side note: wonder if this site would serve like a "dating site" (of sorts) for new hunters to "hook up" with experienced ones looking for a "good time" in the field... does that sound as naughty as I think it did?

 

[B.H.B]

I use an 870 Wingmaster for trap and have hit doubles with it and I'm not much of a shotgun guy. It can certainly pump fast enough for trap or skeet it's just an added skill that a SxS or O/U doesn't require. I suspect if you can't pump fast you can't hit double clays with any shotgun, however. For a slug or buckshot gun I use the Wichester SXP Defender. It's a nice Turkish made shotgun and cheap for a Winchester (sub $400).

 

[canvasback]

OK, pump action fans, as I can see I just opened a can of worms. Here is my IMHO:



No need to spend 3K. I had a Stevens 512 Gold Wing and it was a great, affordable shotgun. Of course, it's not a Beretta 686/682/692/DT11 or a Krieghoff K80 or a Blaser F3. But for learning, it's a great O/U shotgun.



Yes, wasting money. As I said earlier, you can shoot pairs with a pump but it requires much more practice (read money) to compare with O/U. Every time the shooter misses the second target due to a pump reloading, he/she loses money (the price of the clay + ammo) because there is no hit. The shooter can not figure out why he/she missed the target and what needs to be done to improve it because he/she spends extra time reloading the gun. With semi or O/U, a shooter can concentrate on aiming, on shooting position, on barrel motion and stay on target for the second shot. This is much more important than simply burning the ammo jerking the gun back and forth, working the action. Additionally, the advantage of the O/U is that a shooter can have 2 different chokes, the gun usually has less recoil and the barrel life is much longer. Also, it's easy to maintain: clean the barrels and receiver, grease the pivot, oil the barrel, and you're done. There isn't much that can go wrong with a pump but there's even less with an o/u or sxs.



Yes, rubbish. If one guy out of thousand shoots well the pairs with a pump gun, it doesn't mean that the pump is a great gun for that. There are people who still shoot 1000m targets with open sights and old rifles. But the majority of us use heavy barrels and high magnification scopes to do that. I agree, there isn't a "one gun fits all". I have O/U, pump, semi and they all are great guns for a certain purpose. I was just saying that for shooting sporting clays, a pump gun is not the best choice.



Yes, they start and after awhile they buy semi or O/U. Why? Because they are better. Pump action guns have only one advantage - they are less expensive to buy.

This is the rubbish. Not because what you say doesn't have some validity. It's rubbish because it really represents your firmly held and minority opinion and you are offering it up as fact.

The OP wasn't asking for the perfect SC gun....he was asking about a good, all round starter gun. I started with a pump. And after shooting pumps almost exclusively for almost 30 years, I could pump so fast I didn't even know I'd done it. Didn't take "practice". It took shooting, which is what I bought the gun for. I didn't graduate from pumps to semi's or O/U. I sold the only semi I had (was a gift).

Taking a page from your book, I'll just say I graduated from pumps to the only guns that matter....SxS. LOL

The OP asked for advice. He got lots from people with lots of experience with shotguns. The consensus answer is a pump, ideally an wingmaster.

 

[dkf]

OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago trying to decide whether to go with the 870 or the 500 as my first shotgun. We seem to be somewhat similar in that I too obsessively researched the two before making a choice. You seem to have received a lot of great advice here but I'm hoping some of my tips might still be helpful:

1. You won't go wrong with either the 870 or the 500. Both have been around for decades, been manufactured in the millions, and seen extensive military and police service so reliability and durability shouldn't be a concern with either.

2. Possibly contradicting point 1 a bit, but there seems to have been some talk about slipping quality control on Remington 870 Express models a few years ago. This won't matter to you if you go the used Wingmaster route.

3. Remington 870 = steel receiver, Mossberg 500 = aluminum receiver - the difference didn't matter to me but it might to you.

4. Remington 870 = single extractor, Mossberg 500 = dual extractors - Mossberg claims it makes a difference reliability-wise. Logically it makes sense but both the 870 and 500 are legendarily reliable so the difference is likely minimal.

5. The Remington 870's ejector spring is held in place with a rivet while the Mossberg 500 uses a screw. In the event the spring breaks, the 870 will likely need to go to a gunsmith while the 500 would just be a matter of replacement parts. I'm noting this as you mentioned ease of repair as a consideration.

6. If you haven't already, get your hands on both and note the safety and action release locations. This was actually what made my decision as I much preferred the tang mounted safety on the 500 versus the crossbolt on the 870.

7. Whichever way you go, think about picking up the Magpul SGA stock (available for both). The SGA allows you to modify both length of pull (via included spacers) and comb height (height extensions sold separately). I have relatively short arms so the adjustable length of pull was a lifesaver. I find the grip angle more comfortable than the original stock as well.

Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[alltieear]

OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago trying to decide whether to go with the 870 or the 500 as my first shotgun. We seem to be somewhat similar in that I too obsessively researched the two before making a choice. You seem to have received a lot of great advice here but I'm hoping some of my tips might still be helpful:

1. You won't go wrong with either the 870 or the 500. Both have been around for decades, been manufactured in the millions, and seen extensive military and police service so reliability and durability shouldn't be a concern with either.

2. Possibly contradicting point 1 a bit, but there seems to have been some talk about slipping quality control on Remington 870 Express models a few years ago. This won't matter to you if you go the used Wingmaster route.

3. Remington 870 = steel receiver, Mossberg 500 = aluminum receiver - the difference didn't matter to me but it might to you.

4. Remington 870 = single extractor, Mossberg 500 = dual extractors - Mossberg claims it makes a difference reliability-wise. Logically it makes sense but both the 870 and 500 are legendarily reliable so the difference is likely minimal.

5. The Remington 870's ejector spring is held in place with a rivet while the Mossberg 500 uses a screw. In the event the spring breaks, the 870 will likely need to go to a gunsmith while the 500 would just be a matter of replacement parts. I'm noting this as you mentioned ease of repair as a consideration.

6. If you haven't already, get your hands on both and note the safety and action release locations. This was actually what made my decision as I much preferred the tang mounted safety on the 500 versus the crossbolt on the 870.

7. Whichever way you go, think about picking up the Magpul SGA stock (available for both). The SGA allows you to modify both length of pull (via included spacers) and comb height (height extensions sold separately). I have relatively short arms so the adjustable length of pull was a lifesaver. I find the grip angle more comfortable than the original stock as well.

Hope this helps and good luck!

forgot to include that the 500 elevator stays down! i found it a lot easier to load than other shotguns where you have to fight the elevator