Another thread with lathe questions - small lathes.

[northern skies]

I know the lathe topic has been beaten to death here but I don't feel that these questions are fully covered yet.

I've wanted a lathe for about 15 years now, but I've been heeding the advice that "bigger is the way to go" and never ended up going for one because of future moves, budgets, and lack of space. Lately I've been frustrated by not having a lathe at all and have decided to just get one.

I went to look at a big 13x40 machine yesterday, and I'm having big hesitations about going for it. I only have a 10x20 garage, and it has an asphalt floor. It's a converted carport. Replacing the asphalt with concrete is not an option, so I would plan to buy a thick steel plate to spread out the weight underneath. My heavy toolbox isn't sinking in with just wood blocks under the wheels. I am worried about being able to move the machine into place though. But this lathe is mostly causing me some stress because of the sheer amount of space it would take up, realistically a quarter of the garage.

For someone looking for a home shop lathe to make everything but money, used once or twice a month, what would your advice be?

Thanks.

 

[Janeau]

I would buy my barrel chambered - finished and get a small lathe for the other hobbies need.
Will be cheaper to boots and no need to buy reamers and bigger lathe for a few barrel.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Most small "hobby" style lathes lack terribly in structural capacity, meaning tool chattering and harmonics get passed onto whatever you are working on. From experience 40" is on the small side unless you only plan to chamber short barrels or hold them in the headstock. A used 60" engine (tool room) lathe designed for industrial use can be had for under $10K if you watch for them. Most will require a 3 phase converter and possibly a step up transformer so add another $3K

Putting a 4'x8'x3/4" on top of your asphault floor should provide a very stable platform for any lathe. The nice thing about asphault is that it is a more "dead" floor than concrete.

 

[guntech]

On a small lathe with a small hole in the head stock you can still do excellent work using a steady rest . The bed length is more important.

One of the best smiths I knew used a 10 inch Atlas with a 3 foot bed. When he bought a bigger lathe I bought his Atlas and used it for years...

For the few jobs you wish to do and the garage space you wish to use, I think the big lathe is a waste of money.

 

[tiriaq]

A concrete slab could be easily cast on top of the asphalt. This would also raise the lathe a few inches which would not be a bad thing.
If the spindle bore is adequate - say 1 1/4" or more, you could get way with only 24" centers for barrel work.
It is also possible to dismantle a lathe for moving it.

 

[Potashminer]

Only about the base part - I have seen very expensive, solid type - was in a machine shop at a mine that I worked at - I was told that the big lathe (like 30 foot bed) was sitting on two pedestals that were their own pilings down like 30 or 40 feet into the ground. The shop concrete floor was poured after those pilings were poured - so I was told. Huge things were turned on that machine - had it's own gantry crane overhead to place items like turbine shafts and BIG pump shafts and other things.

Versus my tinker toy one in this garage - is an Atlas TH54 - so 54" bed - with a headstock on the bed - is about 36" between live centre in tail stock and dead centre in head stock. Is apparently a 25/32" (0.78125") hole through the headstock. An ancient old one from WWII era - I think the Timkin bearing races on it were dated 1940's when I dismantled it. Is simply bolted onto a Canadian Tire workshop table - vibrations and harmonics galore. But, it is mine and is here and I do stuff with it - sometimes many times to get something acceptable to use. And I have easily spent equivalent to what that lathe cost, on various chucks, rests, cutters, quick change tool post and gizmos that I am not even sure what they are called, but I now know what they do. Has been posted on CGN before - having ANY lathe to use is better than having NO lathe.

And, perhaps bizarrely, I wanted a 26 mm lapping bar for installing some older scopes - did not trust that I could turn such a thing precisely enough on that old girl, so for relative peanuts had a real machinist turn one about 10" long, on a real lathe. Maybe sometimes gotta know your limits, and "farm out" some stuff. But has been dozens of things that did get done - hinges for boat docks, etc. that would not have got done without a lathe, of some sort.

 

[northern skies]

^ On the other end, I wonder what it would have been like to turn a 26mm lapping bar on that 30 foot lathe?

 

[bush1]

Only about the base part - I have seen very expensive, solid type - was in a machine shop at a mine that I worked at - I was told that the big lathe (like 30 foot bed) was sitting on two pedestals that were their own pilings down like 30 or 40 feet into the ground. The shop concrete floor was poured after those pilings were poured - so I was told. Huge things were turned on that machine - had it's own gantry crane overhead to place items like turbine shafts and BIG pump shafts and other things.

Versus my tinker toy one in this garage - is an Atlas TH54 - so 54" bed - with a headstock on the bed - is about 36" between live centre in tail stock and dead centre in head stock. Is apparently a 25/32" (0.78125") hole through the headstock. An ancient old one from WWII era - I think the Timkin bearing races on it were dated 1940's when I dismantled it. Is simply bolted onto a Canadian Tire workshop table - vibrations and harmonics galore. But, it is mine and is here and I do stuff with it - sometimes many times to get something acceptable to use. And I have easily spent equivalent to what that lathe cost, on various chucks, rests, cutters, quick change tool post and gizmos that I am not even sure what they are called, but I now know what they do. Has been posted on CGN before - having ANY lathe to use is better than having NO lathe.

And, perhaps bizarrely, I wanted a 26 mm lapping bar for installing some older scopes - did not trust that I could turn such a thing precisely enough on that old girl, so for relative peanuts had a real machinist turn one about 10" long, on a real lathe. Maybe sometimes gotta know your limits, and "farm out" some stuff. But has been dozens of things that did get done - hinges for boat docks, etc. that would not have got done without a lathe, of some sort.

You’re last paragraph is spot on and that’s the philosophy I used. I have a small Myford lathe and it’s awesome for my limited machining talents on smaller projects and I take my more demanding work to my friends machine shop. He has all the machines, tooling and expertise and can do something in minutes.

 

[northern skies]

Most small "hobby" style lathes lack terribly in structural capacity, meaning tool chattering and harmonics get passed onto whatever you are working on.

vibrations and harmonics galore.

About this. Is there a way around it? Light cuts, playing with feeds, sharp tools, avoiding resonance? Or is it hopeless without massive rigidity?

I wonder if there was an accepted large tolerance limit to what the folks getting with these back in the day in schools, ships, WW2, industry.

Putting a 4'x8'x3/4" on top of your asphault floor should provide a very stable platform for any lathe. The nice thing about asphault is that it is a more "dead" floor than concrete.

This sounds very interesting. One youtuber that I watch liked vibration mounts under his machines. Do you think you would still put steel plates or hockey pucks or something under the leveling feet?
What about moving it... It's 2000lbs and I have an engine crane and a pallet jack, no skates. I wonder if casters would plow into the asphalt with that much weight.

Best options right now are the new-ish 3hp 13x40 with taper attachment, 2 faceplates and a 3 jaw but no 4-jaw and no steady rest for maybe $4-6k plus about $3k to connect it to 240V single phase in any of three ways. It's metric but will cut english threads, and has a DRO.
Other option is a 9x22 Southbend with clean ways on an underdrive cabinet and has 3-jaw, 4-jaw, steady, follow, taper, drawbar and collets, faceplates etc. Could go for about $3500.
Anything bigger or more expensive is out. The 13x40 is pushing it already.

On a small lathe with a small hole in the head stock you can still do excellent work using a steady rest . The bed length is more important.

One of the best smiths I knew used a 10 inch Atlas with a 3 foot bed. When he bought a bigger lathe I bought his Atlas and used it for years...

For the few jobs you wish to do and the garage space you wish to use, I think the big lathe is a waste of money.

 

[tiriaq]

You could certainly cut chambers/breech threads with part of the barrel inside the spindle and the barrel held by a 4-jaw and steady. If you think about it, there should be less vibration than if more of the barrel was projecting from the spindle. If contouring, you could swap the barrel end for end.

 

[Mike Webb]

Chatter with light machines is a problem. High speed steel tools are the answer in old style lathes like the South Bend provided you understand tool clearances, rake etc. You can grind your own tools to reduce nose radii, play with feeds and speeds will teach you a lot about chatter and vibration.

 

[trevj]

About this. Is there a way around it? Light cuts, playing with feeds, sharp tools, avoiding resonance? Or is it hopeless without massive rigidity?

I wonder if there was an accepted large tolerance limit to what the folks getting with these back in the day in schools, ships, WW2, industry.



This sounds very interesting. One youtuber that I watch liked vibration mounts under his machines. Do you think you would still put steel plates or hockey pucks or something under the leveling feet?
What about moving it... It's 2000lbs and I have an engine crane and a pallet jack, no skates. I wonder if casters would plow into the asphalt with that much weight.

Best options right now are the new-ish 3hp 13x40 with taper attachment, 2 faceplates and a 3 jaw but no 4-jaw and no steady rest for maybe $4-6k plus about $3k to connect it to 240V single phase in any of three ways. It's metric but will cut english threads, and has a DRO.
Other option is a 9x22 Southbend with clean ways on an underdrive cabinet and has 3-jaw, 4-jaw, steady, follow, taper, drawbar and collets, faceplates etc. Could go for about $3500.
Anything bigger or more expensive is out. The 13x40 is pushing it already.




That is very encouraging, but brings me back to the question about chambering with the barrel halfway into the spindle bore. On a 22" lathe with 10 or 12 inches of barrel sticking out from the chuck into a steady rest, and 10" of bed left for a reamer and holder, could you reasonably do a decent chambering job?

Yes, and you are on the right track, too. The chatter you get on a badly set up lathe cut is entirely about dealing with the 'music' that you machine tool plays! You can use a stiffer tool, or you can find a place in the scheme of things, where you are NOT playing within the range of resonant frequencies that make chatter. Harmonics is a big part of the deal!

It is good to keep in mind, that the recommended speeds and feeds, in most published sources, are about getting the best return on investment for the shop owner, not the best possible results for the customer!

 

[bearhunter]

My first lathe was a "UNIMAT"

I used it for all sorts of small parts making and even threaded revolver barrels between centers.

It was a great learning tool but it definitely had its limitations.

OP, if you're really only going to do a few one off firearms, then a smaller lathe will do the job, if you know how to overcome the issues created by the smaller dimensions.

You won't be able to make deep cuts to remove excess metal while cutting profiles and that doesn't matter one bit, if you have the time to put towards the project.

It's also nice to have the bore of your muzzle protruding from the rear of the spindle, when cutting tenon threads and chambering, if you don't have a floating reamer holder.

I sold my first larger lathe, a 10x30 with a 3/4" spindle because it was next to impossible to fit a spider to the rear end, so I could center the axis of the bore with the four jaw chuck and tail stock center.

Like you, when I first started out, I thought I'm only going to do a few for myself. Well, that sounded good, but life doesn't work that way.

I soon found that I had several ''friends'' that had firearms in need of repair but couldn't afford the efforts of a qualified gunsmith. Many of them had unusuable firearms just languishing in closets, garage ceilings etc. The owners didn't want to sell for all sorts of reasons, some viable.

For me, this was a blessing in disguise as I got to work on a lot of different types of firearms and had the opportunity to closely observe why some models were truly better than others and how they were better.

I also broke a few parts on the lathe and screwed up a few parts on some of the firearms I worked on, which led to me having to replace or make up a new part.

I also soon learned I was good with metal work but a wood butcher.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

My suggestion is that you get the largest lathe that will fit into the space you have available and remember that you will need bright lighting and storage space for the tooling etc. Also, don't forget to factor in the type of power you have available.

One other thing to remember, MAKE SURE THE LATHE BED IS LEVEL ACROSS ALL FOUR CORNERS and STABLE.

One of the best floors I have experienced was made from rough cut 6x10 bridge decking, laid out on a paved garage floor and properly leveled. That wood floor was warmer and had more ''give'' than concrete or pavement. Still a good soft rubber mat will work wonders when it's cold or your back gets kinks from bending over the controls.

 

[northern skies]

Thanks for all the advice so far. It's very encouraging.

The auction for that 13x40 came and went. I decided to let the price decide whether to go for it or not. It was a nice Colchester-Clausing with a DRO, so one shouldn't be surprised that there was a bit of a bidding war. It went for $6000, which isn't bad, but considering the need to spend $3000 on hooking it up to household power, $1000 for a 4-jaw chuck, $1000 for a steady rest, etc, it was turning into a money pit.

Another 13x40, an import, already 240V, came up in the meantime. With everything. Also a Cincinnati Tray-top 12.5X24, missing some tooling. And a small Logan. So maybe the market isn't as dry as I might have thought. I'll keep my eye out, and maybe the right one will come up soon. And one that I have a chance to pick up around my schedule. We'll see.

It seems like there's a bit of a goldilocks situation. The common small workshop lathes seem too weak, and common toolroom lathes are too big. So the ones left over that fit my footprint are Colchester Students, Standard-Moderns like 11x20's up to maybe 13-34's, and stuff like that tray-top.

Again, I appreciate the advice.

 

[bearhunter]

Thanks for all the advice so far. It's very encouraging.

The auction for that 13x40 came and went. I decided to let the price decide whether to go for it or not. It was a nice Colchester-Clausing with a DRO, so one shouldn't be surprised that there was a bit of a bidding war. It went for $6000, which isn't bad, but considering the need to spend $3000 on hooking it up to household power, $1000 for a 4-jaw chuck, $1000 for a steady rest, etc, it was turning into a money pit.

Another 13x40, an import, already 240V, came up in the meantime. With everything. Also a Cincinnati Tray-top 12.5X24, missing some tooling. And a small Logan. So maybe the market isn't as dry as I might have thought. I'll keep my eye out, and maybe the right one will come up soon. And one that I have a chance to pick up around my schedule. We'll see.

It seems like there's a bit of a goldilocks situation. The common small workshop lathes seem too weak, and common toolroom lathes are too big. So the ones left over that fit my footprint are Colchester Students, Standard-Moderns like 11x20's up to maybe 13-34's, and stuff like that tray-top.

Again, I appreciate the advice.

Don't run away from the Taiwanese knock offs. They work just fine and are reasonably priced for home hobbyists that have the time to work around their shortcomings.

Both of my present lathes are Taiwanese and they both do excellent work as long as I do my part.

Taiwanese tooling can be purchased in mediocre grades right up to some of the best quality available anywhere at half the price.

I've had used lathes and won't do it again. By the time I got them into the condition I was happy with, I could have bought new Taiwanese machines with all of the tooling I would ever need, other than such things as chamber reamers.

I often speak with folks that have purchased what appeared to be well maintained, used lathes which were sitting idle for all sorts of reasons, usually three phase power needed to run their systems, just to big, lack of tooling, wear that wasn't visible and caused poor tolerance control, etc.

If you aren't going into business or looking at setting up production sequences, the Taiwanese knock offs will do the job.

The one thing I soon found out that if I wanted the jobs to go faster and smoother, the machine needed to be powerful enough to make decent depth cuts without over stressing the unit or the tooling being used. That means larger, more expensive tooling will be required for SOME jobs.

Having a spindle that has an internal thread at the rear or sometimes infeed end, which is able to accept a threaded spider attachment will save a lot of effort later.

I did make up a spider that fit over the spindle shaft and used set screws to true it to the axis of the bore. This allowed me to make sure both end of the barrel were true to the bore of the lathe, which is very important.

 

[hunter5425]

I have an old (1946) Southbend 9 inch lathe that I have used to rebarrel a handful of rifles and using a steady rest and light cuts did a very good job. As mentioned HSS tools work best as they don't need high speeds to make a nice finish and have the advantage of being shape to your needs as well. The downside is finding one that isn't clapped out, but if you have a knowledgeable friend they can check it out for you.

 

[tiriaq]

It is really good if a used machine is under power. Then you can do more than just look at it.

When I got my Standard Modern, it was set up for 3 phase. I read about various ways of dealing with this, the appearance of the smoke genie, etc., and just said heck with it and installed a single phase 220v motor. Ordered it from a Canadian company. Got a Chinese motor. Constantly blowing capacitors. Gave up on it, bought a US made motor (Leland) from a supplier in Detroit. Electric Motor Warehouse - they solicited Canadian business, shipped from the Canadian side of the river. Good price, great motor, has run like a top.

 

[B_noser]

I have also run into capacitor issues with off shore electric motors - primarily run capacitors, if I recall correctly. My theory is that the voltage rating of the capacitors is often too low or overrated and there can be voltage spikes from collapsing magnetic fields. The problem seemed to go away when I replaced them with capacitors having higher voltage ratings.

 

[Leeper]

Mick McPhee contoured, threaded, and chambered a barrel for his 1886 Winchester, on an Atlas 6x18" lathe. Mick was always able to find a way to accomplish things.
I contoured and fitted a bunch of barrels on 12x36 lathes and bunch more on a light 13x40.

 

[bearhunter]

It is really good if a used machine is under power. Then you can do more than just look at it.

When I got my Standard Modern, it was set up for 3 phase. I read about various ways of dealing with this, the appearance of the smoke genie, etc., and just said heck with it and installed a single phase 220v motor. Ordered it from a Canadian company. Got a Chinese motor. Constantly blowing capacitors. Gave up on it, bought a US made motor (Leland) from a supplier in Detroit. Electric Motor Warehouse - they solicited Canadian business, shipped from the Canadian side of the river. Good price, great motor, has run like a top.

Leland are excellent motors. My last place of employment used them exclusively as primary drivers.