Anschutz 64 Ignition Troubleshooting

I had a few other jobs to finish tonight then I got the shoulder set back on the firing pin before I switch to a setup to cross drill the striker pin. I thought I'd just go in there with a sharp nose bit and do the work but nope! The firing pin is hardened and just laughed at the HSS as the nose of my bit turned to a mushroom.



I had to get crafty, most carbide inserts have a larger nose radius than I'd want for a task like this, but a threading insert could do the job if I can just angle it in there.



I took off 0.010" from the pin shoulder so now the max protrusion is 0.035" which keeps it from hitting the breech face if dry fired and 0.010"-0.015" off the shoulder stop in the bolt body with case penetration of 0.020"-0.025", the sweet spot. I tested out heat treating a scrap bit of material that I used for the new striker pin. Quenched in used motor oil it takes on a nice colour coat.



After treatment, a file still cuts it and a hammer smack test with it held in a vice, the material just deformed where the jaws gripped it. It did not harden.



So this mystery steel may not be appropriate in a striker pin application, could be subject to premature wear. Well I'm prototyping here, I had it on hand and it was free scrap so I'm not out anything but my time on it. I'll still be able to see if my design gives the desired penetration level, that's the main thing. If I need to tweak the dimensions after testing it, I can order some appropriate material to make a final version.
 
When your Anschutz 64 MS R rifle had its original Anschutz barrel and then later a Shilen barrel, it presumably had no excessive fail-to-fire issues. Other than the IBI being previously unused on this rifle, is the chamber cut for heavier engraving the only difference between the IBI version of the rifle and the others?
 
If you haven't already done so, yank a bullet, dump the powder, chamber it and close the bolt. Extract it with the gun tilted back so you can see whether or not you're making the primer flake off. Perhaps do 5-10.
 
_Shorty said:
If you haven't already done so, yank a bullet, dump the powder, chamber it and close the bolt. Extract it with the gun tilted back so you can see whether or not you're making the primer flake off. Perhaps do 5-10.
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Trying to follow here Shorty ... Would primer flaking off be evidence of insufficient headspace?
Thanks.
 
Well, he says he cut it so that there is a small amount of crush with that particular ammo, though still a little wiggle room for the other two ammos. But the one with the small amount of crush is the one he's been testing with and having some ignition issues with. One possibility is the crush is deforming the case enough to dislodge some of the priming compound. This may or may not be happening, and he could test whether or not that is even happening by the method described. It could be a number of different things, but I don't believe he mentioned checking that, so thought I'd mention it to add to the troubleshooting list. If it is getting crushed a little too much then I imagine there might be some flakes of the priming compound that could be shaken out after extracting the case. If the crush isn't enough to disturb it then I'd probably cross the smaller than usual headspace off the list.
 
In my opinion, engaging the rifling is a good thing, crushing the case is not a good thing. Quality ammo will have very good tolerances of rim thickness and I believe when chambering rimfires the ammo intended to be shot is really important in the decision of which reamer and what headspace. I admire thinking outside the box! When you strive to extract the most thats attainable then choices of what may work become limited and only the lot numbers really matter as to which ammo may ultimately perform at the desired level. Im very interested as to why the tempering didnt work? Maybe a faster quench?
 
_Shorty said:
Well, he says he cut it so that there is a small amount of crush with that particular ammo, though still a little wiggle room for the other two ammos. But the one with the small amount of crush is the one he's been testing with and having some ignition issues with. One possibility is the crush is deforming the case enough to dislodge some of the priming compound. This may or may not be happening, and he could test whether or not that is even happening by the method described. It could be a number of different things, but I don't believe he mentioned checking that, so thought I'd mention it to add to the troubleshooting list. If it is getting crushed a little too much then I imagine there might be some flakes of the priming compound that could be shaken out after extracting the case. If the crush isn't enough to disturb it then I'd probably cross the smaller than usual headspace off the list.
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You've got it reversed, the ammo getting the slight crush is reliably firing while the ones with some space have the issues. I had thought of this as noted in my first post, but after measuring the rims the data kinda threw that theory out the window.

Longstud said:
In my opinion, engaging the rifling is a good thing, crushing the case is not a good thing. Quality ammo will have very good tolerances of rim thickness and I believe when chambering rimfires the ammo intended to be shot is really important in the decision of which reamer and what headspace. I admire thinking outside the box! When you strive to extract the most thats attainable then choices of what may work become limited and only the lot numbers really matter as to which ammo may ultimately perform at the desired level. Im very interested as to why the tempering didnt work? Maybe a faster quench?
Click to expand...

One of my reasons for going with slightly tight headspace was to account for the wear on the bolt lug that will occur over time. In a few years time it will be perfect for all ammo (good ammo brands, no Winchester lol) and extend the time that headspace stays in a good range. As to why the metal didn't harden, we go back to the fact that it is scrap metal of an unknown alloy. There's no way to determine what it is outside of a lab. We can sorta guess at it from it's observable properties, the fact it used to be a shaft and had similar machinability to some known 4140HT steel I had purchased before had me thinking it was an alloy like that. Mild steel won't harden from heating and quenching, so this observation tells me that the steel is a mild steel, probably a structural steel like 1018. Mild steel is receptive to case hardening, so I can experiment with that on it next. I don't have time to build a kiln and a pack box and go through that process by tomorrow, but what I can try is heating it red then dipping it in crushed charcoal and calcium carbonate. Repeat that a few times then do the quench process. If successful it'll form a thin hard casing, while the other method with the kiln will build a thicker casing layer.
 
Leuchtkafer said:
You've got it reversed, the ammo getting the slight crush is reliably firing while the ones with some space have the issues. I had thought of this as noted in my first post, but after measuring the rims the data kinda threw that theory out the window.



One of my reasons for going with slightly tight headspace was to account for the wear on the bolt lug that will occur over time. In a few years time it will be perfect for all ammo (good ammo brands, no Winchester lol) and extend the time that headspace stays in a good range. As to why the metal didn't harden, we go back to the fact that it is scrap metal of an unknown alloy. There's no way to determine what it is outside of a lab. We can sorta guess at it from it's observable properties, the fact it used to be a shaft and had similar machinability to some known 4140HT steel I had purchased before had me thinking it was an alloy like that. Mild steel won't harden from heating and quenching, so this observation tells me that the steel is a mild steel, probably a structural steel like 1018. Mild steel is receptive to case hardening, so I can experiment with that on it next. I don't have time to build a kiln and a pack box and go through that process by tomorrow, but what I can try is heating it red then dipping it in crushed charcoal and calcium carbonate. Repeat that a few times then do the quench process. If successful it'll form a thin hard casing, while the other method with the kiln will build a thicker casing layer.
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Very interesting and the case hardening is incredible, My father was a blacksmith from Denmark bye trade. Could make anything out of metal and knew how to weld,temper and harden anything just bye feel and looking at it. Made guns all with hand tools and reloading equipment as well, My younger brother decided to take a pistol my father made that was an exact copy of a Colt 45, made completely with hand tools while he was still employed with Dupont. He worked there for over fourty years until he retired. My brother thought he should relieve a gas station of the days funds with that gun!! Long story short was 2 Less a day for my idiot brother an an absolute discharge for my father. The judge determined my fathers time in Canada with no criminal past and the fact my father admitted to the judge he could easily make more than 100 handguns a day if he made jigs! I guess the judge thought he was honest and better having someone on the proper side of the law. That gun still travels on exhibit shown with what can be made in the form of weapons by the Ontario Provincial Police. You can also try Roxull insulation with a layer of sand on both sides. Its made from lava and will not catch fire and the sand is also a great heat sink which will allow a much slower cooling time. If you have a glass blowing shop around you ,most have claves that hold temp for 24 hours until opened. Buying or aquiring a good chunk of tool steel is probably the easiest. Kindah sucks doin all that work but admire the effort and tryin
 
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Leuchtkafer said:
You've got it reversed, the ammo getting the slight crush is reliably firing while the ones with some space have the issues. I had thought of this as noted in my first post, but after measuring the rims the data kinda threw that theory out the window.
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Ah, in that case, that detail slipped my mind. Strange that the small amount of wiggle room you have would be causing anything. No wonder you dove in, hehe.
 
I got my analog readouts setup then did the edge finding



Move to coordinates, then I kissed the top of the pin with an end mill to create a flat spot for the drill, then centre drill, drill, test fit pin, on the money :cool: A #40 0.098" drill was purrrfect.



What's this? I can't "prime" (lol censorship of the proper term) the bolt now. Hey, I made the part to spec, it's the engineer's fault! Oh wait... I'm the engineer :cautious: Turns out, you can't compress the spring much more than occurs in the OEM condition. I didn't even think to check this. I'm good at making and fixin' things, gimmie da spec and watch me go. I see,"oh I need some more spring power, how can I do that? Just compress the spring more, by this much. Alright, let's make it!". I don't have that little engineer's voice in the back of my mind whispering "But is it possible to compress the spring more?".



Needless to say, no testing got done today after the ORPS match. Where does this put me? It's no big deal to chuck up the pin I just made again and reduce the large diameter section down to something that allows me to #### the bolt. Some measuring to do and once I got the spec, 10 minutes of work. I just won't get much extra compression vs the OEM pin, maybe 0.030"-0.050" guesstimating. No idea if that little compression will be enough to resolve the issue, so it looks like the solution will have to come from an extra power spring.

I really would have liked to have checked this project off the list and get back to my PRS build projects, but that's how she goes sometimes. Every project I do builds my skills and confidence, and I learned a bunch on this one. One can look at it as a "failure" or as "experience". I'm better off for having done it so that's a win in my books, and I'm honing in on a real solution. I will get there, just gotta keep at it. Alright, enough said, back to work! *whip cracking sound* :ROFLMAO:
 
_Shorty said:
Doh! hehe. Somebody probably makes stronger springs already. The place I get CZ and 1712 springs from has some 64 stuff, including a 10% heavier spring. Their action screws are pretty nice, too.

For ones with no return spring: https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/ANSCHUTZ-64-ACTION-STRIKER-SPRING-p72163164

And ones with a return spring: https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/ANSCHUTZ-64-ACTION-STRIKER-SPRING-KIT-p72163189
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You know, I'm pretty sure I have one of those springs in my 1416, was ages ago I ordered it so memory be foggy. I do have their action screws in the 1416. When was the last time you ordered from them? I just looked on their site and they say they do not ship internationally now.
 
Really? Lame. It has been some time since I got anything from them. I wanted to get some Wolff springs a year or so ago for my 52D and they wouldn't ship to Canada, either.
 
I think I watched some YouTuber doing it on a lathe. Blondihacks, maybe. Seemed like there wasn’t really much to it. Watching is easier than doing, though. Hehe
 
I shot a silhouette match today, no comment about my performance... :sneaky:

I used SK Semi-Auto in this rifle and had no misfires. I hung around after the match to do some more shooting. I tested out RWS Target Rifle and a new lot of RWS Rifle Match, no issues. I loaded a round of old lot Rifle Match and.... misfire! Since I had my 1416 with me I did some shooting with it as well. Picky girl doesn't shoot any of these RWS better than the BBM I've been using in the matches. I fired a box and a half of old lot RWS Rifle Match in the 1416 and had zero misfires. This eliminates that lot as being defective in some manner, the issue is solely with the 64/IBI rifle.

Back home after cleaning the rifles I ran a case penetration test with the 1416. Updated data chart as follows;



I'm getting about 0.004" deeper penetration with a lower ES compared to the 64/IBI. This data helps corroborate the theory that the 64/IBI ignition is running on the ragged edge of reliability, and needs just a touch more power to drive the firing pin. I broke down the 1416 bolt and noted it did not have the black oxide finish on it like my 64/IBI has, such a finish is very "tacky" and I think contributes to the ES of penetration. The 1416 spring generates the same lbs/inch of compression as the 64/IBI, so I believe it is still an OEM spring. I found a pack of J&P trigger springs in my parts drawer, that must have been what I was thinking of and I did not order an extra power firing pin spring those some years ago.

Last week I put in an order for some 4140 steel which can be hardened, and I determined that I can add 0.193" of compression to the spring with a reengineered striker pin while still being able to #### the bolt. Before I get into spring making I'll make a new striker pin out of a proper steel with a nice polished and hardened finish then see where that gets me.
 
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