Anti-Cant devices that actually work....?

Regarding adjustments will not be a true 1/4 MoA (or 0.1 Mil)., that's ends up being little to no problem. A 10-degree cant (very, very visible) will turn a 1-MOA windage adjustment on your scope into an actual sideways adjustment of 0.985 MOA - which would be utterly indistinguishable.

Yup, however, for extreme long range shooting, let me demonstrate your 1000 yard scenario in a different light:

1500 yards, 7mm WSM ballistics, 10mph crosswind, standard atmosphere: Required Adjustment ~= 50.0 MoA up and 10.0 MoA windage (200 x 40 clicks).
Scope cant of 5 degrees: actual adjustment = 48.9 MoA and 14.3 MoA (Assuming your reticle is canted a certain direction, doesn't actually matter which way in the long run).
Translation: Your 5 degree cant puts you off 17.3" low and 67.9" left/right at 1500 yards! Not so small anymore.

The problem that canting causes for long range shooting is that when you have a large amount of elevation adjustment dialed onto your sight (as you do when shooting at long range), a cant will produce significant sideways offsets due to the sight's elevation becoming cross-coupled to the windage. There is also an equivalent cross-coupling effect from windage to elevation, but since we typically have much smaller windage adjustments than elevation offsets, this is usually not noticeable.
YUP! But you forgot to convert MoA @ 1000 yards to inches (4" & 29" in your case). Even flat shooting cartridges are not safe from the meager 5 degrees of cant.
 
@Haagen_Dazs, thanks.

I think it's usually a good idea to convert into MOA (or mils if you prefer) as soon as you can, and continue to work through and think about your problem and your results in MOA (or mils).

"How good is an inch" depends very much on the distance that you are shooting. But "how good is a minute" is much less dependent on the distance.

In my 308-at-a-thousand-yard example, the important piece of information is that there is a 0.4 MOA error in elevation caused by the cant. This can also correctly be expressed as being 4", but the problem then arises in interpreting that. Is 4" a little bit of error, or a lot of error? By keeping it in MOA, you are able to keep it in perspective in comparison to other relevant factors you know which are best thought of in MOA terms, namely: the amount of wind, and the grouping ability of you+rifle+ammo.

If you know that are able to group (say) 1MOA at 1000y, you now have a context - this 0.4MOA error due to cant, is a modest fraction of your 1.0MOA group size. This means that you are not going to be able to detect the effect with the firing of any single shot; you'd need to shoot a group of several shots before you were able to determine with some degree of confidence whether (or not) your 1MOA group had shifted down 0.4MOA, or not.

Whereas a 2.8 MOA error (which is ~29"), well we know that 2.8 MOA is a big difference - if you are firing a 1MOA group, a shift of 2.8 MOA will be visible with the firing of only a single shot.

In your 1500yard example, I need to convert the numbers back into MOA before I can intelligently respond. A 17.3" error in elevation is about a minute (1.15 MOA). A 67.9" lateral shift is 4.5 MOA.

I think it is debatable whether or not you'd notice a 1 MOA shift in your vertical POI at 1500y - it would depend on how accurate your rifle is at 1500y If you were shooting 1 MOA at 1500y, you could probably-just-barely-be-nearly-sure that the effect was real.

Whereas a 4.5MOA lateral shift you would almost certainly notice - you're shooting a 1MOA or so rifle in a 10MOA wind, a 4.5MOA lateral shift is big enough that you ought to be able to see that sort of wind change, and if not, be able to pretty definitively attribute it to the 5 degree cant.
 
I think we're approaching this from different angles. You're coming at it as a target shooter where it's mostly about group sizes and I'm thinking long range hunting, one-shot-kill kinda thing.

You're interested in precision, I'm thinking accuracy.

29" is a lot when your target is a 20" kill zone. At the end off the day, to let an error put your PoA (Point of Aim) off even half of your rifle's group size isn't acceptable. What's the point of investing all this time and energy into precision shooting if you're going to let something silly like not having a bubble level put you off even the slightest? It still surprises me to see so many long range rifles without a bubble level.


And don't get me started on angle cosine indicators! (I guess those are more for field shooting but still...)
 
Kevin, where have you been able to source these? Thanks!


Not a cheap solution, but the best solution I have ever seen.

SPUHR Ideal Scope Mount.

It has a built in bubble level for controlling cant.

To level the scope on the mount, they came up with a brilliant solution. A simple mechanical 10 degree wedge that fits into a slot and interfaces with the bottom of the flat part of your scope.

No playing around with plumb bobs or levels, no guess work, just straight up results.

I have two of them, both on .50BMG rifles, and can report that they are the best mounting system I have ever used.



ISMS_Cant_2.jpg


And the wedge that slides into the slot to level your scope...

8236
 
I think we're approaching this from different angles. You're coming at it as a target shooter where it's mostly about group sizes and I'm thinking long range hunting, one-shot-kill kinda thing.

You're interested in precision, I'm thinking accuracy.

29" is a lot when your target is a 20" kill zone. At the end off the day, to let an error put your PoA (Point of Aim) off even half of your rifle's group size isn't acceptable. What's the point of investing all this time and energy into precision shooting if you're going to let something silly like not having a bubble level put you off even the slightest? It still surprises me to see so many long range rifles without a bubble level.
And don't get me started on angle cosine indicators! (I guess those are more for field shooting but still...)

You just nailed it! I didn't want to get into the discussion and now thanks to you, I don't have to. Thanks HD.

Ivo
 
It still surprises me to see so many long range rifles without a bubble level.
Many only shoot at a comfortable range, never in ad-hoc field conditions.

And don't get me started on angle cosine indicators! (I guess those are more for field shooting but still...)
Funny you mention those from MB, but yes.
 
Funny you mention those from MB, but yes.

I'm in Manitoba taking an unnecessary break from precision shooting for the time being. My poor target rifle sits back in BC with no one to take care of her :(.

Maybe I'm just a type A person, but I wouldn't spend all these hours educating myself, many more at the reloading bench, and thousands of dollars just to skimp on the bubble level, even it it were just for benchrest shooting.
 
Anti-cant devices: I am in favour of them, I think they're a nice optional-extra for target shooting on surveyed, level, uniform rifle ranges, and I think they're essentially required for long range (more than 600y) field shooting.

Anti-cant devices: it is important that they are installed well-aligned to the scope's reticle.

Anti-cant devices: an interesting note is that it doesn't matter whether or not your scope is carefully plumbed w.r.t. the rifle action or not.


And now on to the rest of my increasingly-drifting reply....(!)

I think we're approaching this from different angles. You're coming at it as a target shooter where it's mostly about group sizes and I'm thinking long range hunting, one-shot-kill kinda thing.

You're interested in precision, I'm thinking accuracy.

Depends on the kind of target shooting, but most target shooting is about accuracy (i.e. we are judged on the basis of how far each of our shots land relative to a predetermined point). It's only in shooting-for-group (some but *NOT* all BR) is the actual position of the group relatively unimportant.

Accuracy starts with precision. Accuracy is precision, *plus* locating your precise shots at a desired place. One can have high precision with low accuracy (e.g. I put ten shots into 10" at 1000 yards, but they are 40" away from the centre of the target). But I am not aware of a scenario in which one can have high accuracy but low precision.

"long range hunting, one-shot-kill kinda thing" is a lot like long range target shooting - only more difficult. All of the lessons and knowledge from long range target shooting apply, plus of course there's a lot more you have to master which you'll not get from target shooting.

To do well in long range target shooting, it is important to understand the capabilities of the gear you are using (for example, its grouping ability at different ranges, the amount of wind drift, etc). It is also important to know the mechanics of shooting, at what does/does-not matter in setting up a shot, and the nature of that (for example - it is useful to know and to understand that at long range, canting can give you meaningful windage errors. It is also useful to know that at short range there is very little windage error due to canting, in many cases and for many applications it can be treated as nil).

29" is a lot when your target is a 20" kill zone. At the end off the day, to let an error put your PoA (Point of Aim) off even half of your rifle's group size isn't acceptable. What's the point of investing all this time and energy into precision shooting if you're going to let something silly like not having a bubble level put you off even the slightest? It still surprises me to see so many long range rifles without a bubble level.


And don't get me started on angle cosine indicators! (I guess those are more for field shooting but still...)

Agreed - long range rifles for field shooting should have a bubble level, properly installed, and properly used. Shooters should understand the simple takeaway about rifle cant - DON'T CANT.

I still maintain that thinking about target sizes, windage errors, rifle grouping ability etc in MOA terms is an extremely useful level of abstraction.
 
I'm in agreement with rnbra-shooter and ultimate_monkey. And I would point out that there is no practical way for you to verify that your scope is in line with the rifle beyond visually assessing it. Box testing will only show you that your scope is running level, not that your rifle is level or in line with the bore. An offset scope that is level will pass a box test.

I prefer scope mounted anti-cant devices (be it on the scope tube or the mounts) because they have the advantage of staying plumb with the scope's adjustments even when you transfer the scope to other rifles.
 
Kevin, where have you been able to source these? Thanks!

Only a few sizes in stock right now, not many options, but they have some in stock.

They are backordered for 3 full production runs right now to keep up with the demand. Good products like this sell like a house on fire.

http://ww .. w.coretacsolutions.com/products_SPUHR_sniper_unimounts.htm
 
I'm in agreement with rnbra-shooter and ultimate_monkey. And I would point out that there is no practical way for you to verify that your scope is in line with the rifle beyond visually assessing it. Box testing will only show you that your scope is running level, not that your rifle is level or in line with the bore. An offset scope that is level will pass a box test.

I prefer scope mounted anti-cant devices (be it on the scope tube or the mounts) because they have the advantage of staying plumb with the scope's adjustments even when you transfer the scope to other rifles.

http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Machinsts-Levels/Levels/134

Actually there is.
1. Put rifle loosely in vice
2. Remove bolt and insert level
3. Clamp rifle in while level
4. Line up vertical crosshair with plumb bob line and tighten scope rings

I prefer scope base mounted levels myself. Most of the machining these days is very good so usually once you use the cross level to true up the rifle initially, you're done
 
That is only a visual verification, it has not been verified by firing. It neglects offsets due to part tolerances, misalignments of things like the scope rail, and the fact that the bore at the muzzle end is likely not perfectly concentric with the action where the scope is mounted. If it was, you could rely on the bore being centered to the OD of the muzzle when threading it, but you cannot relyon on that. The gun drill wonders...

People routinely do the things you've listed and assume that means everything is true and plumb because their box test runs true. The chances are slim-to-nil that everything is perfectly true and plumb. The box test just doesn't show that.


offsetmount02.jpg


Even this setup,which is effectively the same as canting the rifle ~80 degrees, the box test will run true at any given distance IF the scope is kept level. It will however be shifted more and more horizontally the further you go out. That will be noticeable because the offset of this scope is HUGE. The small offsets you get from not having your scope perfectly above the bore or slightly canted relative to the rifle are tiny, and get lost in the noise (wind, thermals, etc...). But, the point is you will not be able to detect them by firing because that offset gets drown out by other things.
 
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That is only a visual verification, it has not been verified by firing. It neglects offsets due to part tolerances, misalignments of things like the scope rail, and the fact that the bore at the muzzle end is likely not perfectly concentric with the action where the scope is mounted. If it was, you could rely on the bore being centered to the OD of the muzzle when threading it, but you cannot relyon on that. The gun drill wonders...

People routinely do the things you've listed and assume that means everything is true and plumb because their box test runs true. The chances are slim-to-nil that everything is perfectly true and plumb. The box test just doesn't show that.

offsetmount02.jpg


Even this setup,which is effectively the same as canting the rifle ~80 degrees, the box test will run true at any given distance IF the scope is kept level. It will however be shifted more and more horizontally the further you go out. That will be noticeable because the offset of this scope is HUGE. The small offsets you get from not having your scope perfectly above the bore or slightly canted relative to the rifle are tiny, and get lost in the noise (wind, thermals, etc...). But, the point is you will not be able to detect them by firing because that offset gets drown out by other things.

If you level the rifle, plumb the crosshairs and the box test passes...its good!
I think those tolerances are good enough for even the best BR and F-class competitors, after all if the box test doesn't show any issues and I can't make it any more plumb/true/square...it must be good enough for our purpose.
If you are talking 0.0001" variations, then no the bore and action may not be 100% alligned but for our purpose, when you level the action and plumb the crosshairs to it, that is about as close as you can get without machining.
 
The box test passes because the crosshairs are plumb (i.e. scope is level), the rifle doesn't need to be level to pass the box test.
 
Gotcha!

Alright, so how do you guys prefer to level your scopes?

1) go to range
2)set up target with 1m plumb line in thick black marker @ 100m
3) get down behind the rifle with only snugged up scope that can still be turned but has proper eye relief, focus and etc...
4) shoulder gun as I normally would
5) look through scope, line up the plumb line to the reticule
6) tighten down scope
7) look through scope again level the level and ensure that the line reticule is still plumb and tighten down scope level.

5 to 10 min max.
 
1) go to range
2)set up target with 1m plumb line in thick black marker @ 100m
3) get down behind the rifle with only snugged up scope that can still be turned but has proper eye relief, focus and etc...
4) shoulder gun as I normally would
5) look through scope, line up the plumb line to the reticule
6) tighten down scope
7) look through scope again level the level and ensure that the line reticule is still plumb and tighten down scope level.

5 to 10 min max.

I do something similar with bright orange paracord hanging plumb.
 
Easiest most accurate way I've found is to level your rifle (this is actually the most difficult part) looking outside at a building window far enough to use full zoom and have the whole window in your field of view. [I said:
Level the scope to intersect the horizontal and vertical planes of the window[/I]. Most windows are installed plumb and square, the further the distance the less influence any errors have, same principal that makes a longer sight radius more accurate. Tighten everything up and you're done, now install the anti-cant while everything is leveled.

I do this slightly differently. I hang a vertical level on the opposite wall of my garage and then set my scope to the straight edge of the level.
 
B square scope level

I have used this in F class shooting for 5 years works great



http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/498458/b-square-bubble-bore-level-weaver-style

http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting/optic-accessories/scope-anti-cant-devices/bubble-level-prod1758.aspx?ttver=2
 
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