Antique drillings shotgun with 2 x 16 gauge and 9,3x72R rifle

L

labradort

Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Location
Nova Scotia
A picture can explain this configuration fairly quickly...

http://www2.artistic.ca:8989/artistic/firearm/combo2.jpg

The barrels are Krupp, so this is not the type that blows apart. Research on the barrel markings
indicates this is pre-1912, but not much else can be found about it.

Part of me would like to use this gun, but the ammunition is so hard to find.

The 16 gauge needs 2.5 inch chamber shells (might be 2 5/8th, close enough).
I gather it would have used black powder back in the day, but my Dad used
it 30 years ago with modern shells, so I'd think it can handle it. Am I wrong there?

The rifle ammunition of 9,3x72R - I have a box of 10, made by RWS (Dynamit, Nobel, Nurnberg),
is hard to get as well.

Is it a bad idea to consider using this gun? Should I only focus on finding a buyer? For a drilling
firearm, it has not been stored away all its life, so there is wear. Ellwood Epps is the only place I've
seen in Canada listing both types of ammunition, but I don't know price or availability as yet.
 
If you aren't willing to reload for it, or buy the correct pressure ammo, I'd suggest selling as it'd be a tragedy to blow it up or permanently damage that gun. If it's still tight and in good mechanical condition there's nothing stopping it being shot, but definitely make sure the ammo is appropriate bore diameter and pressure for that gun. I don't know enough about this particular gun to give direct advice, but I do know there is decent variation in bore diameters in early cartridge guns and that some were not intended to be shot with jacketed bullets, so keep that in mind.
 
H Wally said:
If you aren't willing to reload for it, or buy the correct pressure ammo, I'd suggest selling as it'd be a tragedy to blow it up or permanently damage that gun. If it's still tight and in good mechanical condition there's nothing stopping it being shot, but definitely make sure the ammo is appropriate bore diameter and pressure for that gun. I don't know enough about this particular gun to give direct advice, but I do know there is decent variation in bore diameters in early cartridge guns and that some were not intended to be shot with jacketed bullets, so keep that in mind.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the response. I'm not into this enough to get into reloading, but if I can find the right type of ammunition I would like to try it out. The general advice given is to ask a gunsmith whether it is safe to use. I'll have to work on that too, as the yellow pages are short on listings.
 
You can get Kent 2 5/8" 16 Ga ammo pretty easy. The 9.3x72R ammo can be had from Tradex and its fit for your rifle.
 
Beauty of CGN - ask and there's an answer :)

You might get away by reading up on Google and youtube about figuring out how to assess sxs shotguns being "on-face", which basically means the barrels are tight against the receiver face. Between that and assessing play in the action at lockup and checking the firing pins to make sure they aren't too sharp, or firing pin holes too large, and you might be ok. All comes down to how much you read and how comfortable you feel assessing it.

As a side note - Does Kent emulate black powder pressures, low pressures or? I've used it for a standard modern 16 gauge but frankly don't know a ton about it.
 
Many old 16 ga guns had 2 9/16" chambers because of the rolled crimp paper shells used in those times. I doubt the 2 5/8 Kent shells would be any problem. It obviously has a strong action, including the Doll's head extension and by 1912 there were at least "semi-smakeless" powders being used. If you were to photograph the proof marks and other stamps on the undersides of the barrels and post here I am sure there are folks who could tell whether the gun was proofed for smokeless ammo.
 
Please note that 9.3x72R Sauer is a long-obsolete caliber in a straight-walled case. The bullet weighs 186gr - this is important, as you'll see in a minute.

OTOH, 9.3x74R is decidedly not obsolete, and is in a necked case and lots of loading data is available for it, with bullets ranging from 250 up to 286gr. Both Norma and RWS make it here in Yoorup, where it is still very popular, particularly in Scandinavia for elg.

On the underneath gun barrels you will find the load data - in GRAMS, not grains, including the bullet weight and charge/load weight. IF the rifled barrel is made for the 9.3x72, then the bullet weight will be around 12g. If for the later cartridge, then 16g up to 18.5g. It will also note the type of powder used. Abbreviations such as StmG - steel-jacketed - will also be stamped there.

All the details of the shotgun barrels will also be there, including calibre, choking percentage and cartridge length.

Please let us know what ALL that is stamped there and we can quickly sort out exactly what you have. An easy way to check the tightness of the action is to put a couple of cigarette papers on the striker face and gently close the gun. If it closes easily, then it is 'off the face' and needs looking at. However, doll's head locks are VERY expensive to restore.

tac
 
I have the same Drilling combination and have shot all 3 of the barrells. I got some proper 9.3 x 72 brass for it but it would not chamber all the way. During my research I discovered that many of these guns were made by small shops / gunmakers in central Europe and at that time many of the calibres did not have standard measurements and a wide variation exhisted. I was able to borrow a reamer from a very nice gentleman here on CGN and cleaned up my chamber and now the factory 9.3 x 72 work just fine. Fun to shoot.
A few years ago a friend passed away and he owned a similar drilling. His family had a memorial gathering out on a vacant 100 acres where we celebrated his life by shooting some of his ashes from a 1 inch bore cannon and having many friends fire a several shot salute. I took my drilling and shot the 16 ga in that very memorable event.
 
I think as long as you stick with plastic shells and low pressure or black powder loadings, the shotgun barrels would be safe to shoot with 2 3/4" shells but not with paper shells. Also important to be sure that the cartridge it is chambered for is 9.3 x 72 because Sauer had a patrician cartridge based on the 9.3 x 74 shell (but not the same) Also I suspect that Willy started out with one of the shorter 9.3 straight walled cases because the caliber was produced in several lengths with presumably chambers to match. If you do go into reloading, I am pretty sure that RWS still makes the empty brass although not sure how hard it would be to buy it in Canada. Make sure you are buying boxer primed brass. Jacketed bullets can be bought in both .366 and .367 if my memory is correct and while the x 72 case uses .366, I doubt there would be much pressure increase using .367 which were quite a bit cheaper when I priced them several years ago.

cheers mooncoon
 
Wow, a lot of great responses here. Thanks to everyone for tips, info, suggestions, etc.

OK, now for some pictures in response to the queries...

The rifle ammunition looks like this:

http://www2.artistic.ca:8989/artistic/firearm/93x72r.jpg

The rifle barrel stamps look like this:

http://www2.artistic.ca:8989/artistic/firearm/riflestamps.jpg

The shotgun barrel stamps look like this:

http://www2.artistic.ca:8989/artistic/firearm/shotgunstamps.jpg

The rifle barrel stamp number of 118/35 is discussed somewhere on the web and said by some to indicate manufacture date of pre-1912.
 
tacfoley said:
Please let us know what ALL that is stamped there and we can quickly sort out exactly what you have. An easy way to check the tightness of the action is to put a couple of cigarette papers on the striker face and gently close the gun. If it closes easily, then it is 'off the face' and needs looking at. However, doll's head locks are VERY expensive to restore.

tac
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response and information.

I've posted links to pictures showing the stampings. I used a store receipt paper, which is a little thinner than regular paper,
testing the face fit. I tested the edge along the top where it closes last. On the right barrel, there is a gap so the paper can slide out. On the left barrel it pulls but can come out. If I test the gap with regular bond 20 lb paper, with the hinged action closed and clicked, I can slide the paper in the upper right edge of the right barrel, but not the left barrel.

I saw a youtube video where an old English gunsmith repaired the face fit by hammering and filing of the hinge metal. In that case, they said there was a loose rattle when shaking the gun. Mine doesn't rattle at all.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EqfxRugPVw

This is a link to the youtube video showing a barrel and face repair on an old British side by side. It also has doll's head, but in my case the thumb lever operates the third firing pin for the rifle and lifts a rear sight up on the rib. Where they sense there is something wrong with the midway position for the example in this video, I have no sense of it as the action opens from a lever around the trigger guard on the German gun.

Here is another, with the approach of "tighten the bite" rather than "rejoin". I'd never try doing this, but it is fascinating watching an experienced gunsmith do this...

https://youtu.be/YXbrmmiSngw
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the link labradort.
I have a German drilling in 9.3x72R and have shot it with S&B ammo I got from Tradex. Boxer primed.
The leaver on the tang engages the rifle barrel and a side lever breaks the action.
It has a quick detatch scope and is quite accurate at 100m. It has two folding leaves for the rear site.
I have shot the 16ga barrels with 2 3/4 game loads #6 and they seem fine. They are steel barrels and not Damascus steel.
 
Pete04 said:
Thanks for the link labradort.
I have a German drilling in 9.3x72R and have shot it with S&B ammo I got from Tradex. Boxer primed.
The leaver on the tang engages the rifle barrel and a side lever breaks the action.
It has a quick detatch scope and is quite accurate at 100m. It has two folding leaves for the rear site.
I have shot the 16ga barrels with 2 3/4 game loads #6 and they seem fine. They are steel barrels and not Damascus steel.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. My Dad believes he had used 2 3/4 in it as well, but things I'm reading say it isn't
a good idea for the longevity of the gun. It's one of those things where the "Internet" has a split opinion.
There are many items explaining how 3 inch shells in a 2 3/4 chamber are very bad. It came up in my safety course.
So I'm wondering, why would 2 3/4 in a 2 1/2 chamber be less of a sin?

My Dad would have used it purely for hunting ducks, not shooting at targets, so the number of rounds passing through it would be low.

Some people reference "low pressure loadings". If I buy Federal brand shells, how do I know the loading relative to other shells?

Ellwood said the Kent shells would be about 11 weeks on backorder.

The gunsmith Jack Rowe in the MidwayUSA youtube videos had one video which included a 25 point check for buying these old shotguns. One was the rib test with dinging it like a bell. Mine passes that OK. Another was to look for light passing between the barrel and the face, and this is where I have a "thickness of paper" gap. However there is no loose rattle when shook as they did in the videos. The question is, is it safe to shoot with a small gap? If I'm not putting any skin in that area, it would be a little like the blow by from a revolver I would think.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom